Skydiving without an Altimeter

[Zenister 0]

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Of course. Just like anywhere else, there are all kinds of people. Stupid people are no exception.

and thats why the 'wuffo' tag applies...

by many 'reasonable people's' definition jumping out of planes at all is 'stupid'.

perhaps its just a skewed value scale because some people have a higher level of acceptable risk than you...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[MarkM 0]

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>So, let's say you exit at 10,000 feet instead of the 13,500' to which
>your internal timer is set. What's your internal timer going to do now?

Yeah, I recall the last time Dom did that. He died, needless to say.

Well, I was on a 4 way FF that got out lower than usual. My internal 6k alarm went off at 4k and 2 of the guys I was with ended up pulling at 1500. A person's internal time sense alarm can be easily fooled.

Looking at the ground is a lot more reliable, but it's not as easy for newbies to gauge as many of the high number jumpers seem to think it should be for us new guys.

[AMax 0]

I did not really read all the posts, so my apologies if I am repeating what’s already been said.

IMHO: A lot of people with little to moderate experience say “I jumped without one on multiple occasions and never had any problems”. I guess I also belong to this category but I still wear mine most of the time for one reason: It is not a problem to exit the plane and deploy at proper altitude w/o looking at visual alti (especially if you jump with a group of people and use a Pro-Track). Usually, I only look at my alti twice - before the exit and after I am fully open. However, I don’t think I am already good enough to judge the altitude by eyeball in case of serious problems such as aircraft emergency, midair canopy collision or any problems with main canopy below 2000 ft.

[AndyMan 7]

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A lot of people with little to moderate experience say “I jumped without one on multiple occasions and never had any problems”. I guess I also belong to this category but I still wear mine most of the time for one reason: It is not a problem to exit the plane and deploy at proper altitude w/o looking at visual alti (especially if you jump with a group of people and use a Pro-Track). Usually, I only look at my alti twice - before the exit and after I am fully open. However, I don’t think I am already good enough to judge the altitude by eyeball in case of serious problems such as aircraft emergency, midair canopy collision or any problems with main canopy below 2000 ft.

I think my thoughts are similar.

With the notable exception of a Main canopy and a harness/container, almost all of the gear I carry serves the purpose of being usefull when things go wrong, not when things go right.

There's a common notion in skydiving that once somebody has done something once, they're better because of it. There's countless threads about only jumping with, or as some people put it 'relying' on specific instruments. Often there's an undercurrent of superiority - it seems like some people think they're better because they've jumped without AAD's, Altimeters, goggles, hook-knives, etc. Jumpers are chastised for 'relying' on gear because of they choose to not go without.

I dispute this. Personally, even though I have jumped without AAD's, goggles, hook-knives, or altimeters, I don't think of those times as notches in my metaphorical bedpost, I think of them times as personal failings. They were times when I would have been unprepared for the unlikely. It seems that a good way to keep yourself alive in skydiving is the old scouting motto: be prepared. Intentionally leaving valuable gear on the ground is not wise.

To a new jumper who hasn't developed an acute ability to judge altitude by sight, an altimeter is essentially a life saving device on every skydive. To the rest of us, it's a tool that we carry for when things go wrong - like an RSL, an AAD, or goggles on a CRW jump, etc.

The notion of 'knowing altitude by sight' is interesting. I've been surprised at the number of times I've horrendously misjudged altitude. Usually my judgment of altitude is off most when things change, or when I'm put in unfamiliar circumstances. For example, on the few times I've sat in the right seat of the Otter for an observer ride, I almost always get nervous when the pilot is still diving the plane's decent at 4,000 feet. Other times on landing I've been convinced that we were going to crater well short of the runway, only for the pilot to pull off a textbook landing. Getting back to skydiving, I've found when I jump a new canopy for the first time I'm equally innacurate in my approaches.

We are all faliable. We don't get hurt when everything goes right, but when everything goes wrong. Be prepared.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Sure it is. You have to have a main to leave the airplane (at most dz's anyway). You don't have to have an altimeter, an AAD (at most dz's anyway), an RSL, an audible, goggles, a jumpsuit, a helmet or shoes - sure, they are recommended (and I generally choose to jump with all of them) but once you're a licensed skydiver you can make your own equipment desicions.

It's all a risk/reward call, but I don't see the great reward that comes from jumping without any form of altimeter, esp that matches the accompaning risk.

It's one thing to go without if it fails on the plane ride. May seem silly to waste a jump ticket for that, esp if you do have a high degree of confidence in your sighting. I might even do it at a place like Hollister where the hills give useful references. I don't think I would at Skydance at my current state unless I was on a multiway. With the alti, odds are I'd guess high, perhaps enough to increase risk to others (5-6k?)

There is definitely a smug coolness in the people who write about the altimeter between the eyes. They may be right, but there's definitely some attitude with it that shouldn't be part of the decision process.

[EvilLurker 2]

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Looking at the ground is a lot more reliable, but it's not as easy for newbies to gauge as many of the high number jumpers seem to think it should be for us new guys.

It may be easier for someone who's from a Cessna DZ background and gone through the SL/IAD training to pick up than from a turbine DZ/AFF type background. I had a lot of time droning around at 3500 feet putting out students on multiple runs and throwing wind drift indicators. I have a very good eye for 3500 feet just from seeing what the buildings/cars look like and the ground detail that's visible. 3500 is right where I start my wave-off after a freefall. I can do it without an altimeter pretty accurately, I think, so I'm willing to loan my alti to someone else on the plane in a pinch. If I get into trouble under canopy without an alti, I'm going to have to make an educated guess where my hard deck is and that could get me killed. I'll grant you that point, it's an increased risk. If I'm aware of it, and go straight to my EPs instead of burning altitude trying to do in-flight rigging, I can reduce that risk. If you want to "train" your eyes for better altitude awareness, you need to spend some time at a Cessna DZ and/or start watching your altitude vs. the ground while under canopy, there's really no other way. I will say I can't tell 10,000 ft. from 8,000, but I really don't care. I can sure visually tell 5000 from 3500, though, and I picked that up by jump #50. Unlike some people on here, I'm watching my altimeter at wave-off altitude (and I make sure it's indexing down smoothly, because I've seen them stick). If you don't feel comfortable visually determining when you're getting low, I think that's more risky than not having an altimeter at all, but that's just my personal opinion. I don't trust that "internal timer" much, personally, but it may work well for some people. I used it on 10 and 15 second delays, but over that I had to transition to an altimeter to have ANY idea of where I was. Maybe that's just me.

[MarkM 0]

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If you want to "train" your eyes for better altitude awareness, you need to spend some time at a Cessna DZ and/or start watching your altitude vs. the ground while under canopy, there's really no other way.

I have been "training" my eyes. I'm moving to wingsuit jumping(as soon as my damn PHI gets delivered) and reading a hand mounted alti is a PITA in a wing suit. And it's actually pretty suprising how accurate your eyes can get(though if I went to another DZ, I'd probably have to train them there, I dunno). But I probably didn't start that til jump 230 or so and jumping by eyes only was pretty wildly innaccurate at the first attempts. Worse, since I was doing 90-100 veritical during those jumps instead of my normal 150, my internal clock was also wildly off.

Fun is when your untrained eyes say "Hmm, this looks pretty high, I think you got plenty of time" while you mind is screaming "OMG, you should've pulled 10 seconds ago, you're gonna die".

My Neptune doesn't have either of those flaws. It just dies when I most need it if I forget to put in new batteries...

[Tonto 1]

Well - I'm getting soft in my old age... I wear a wingsuit now!

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[JohnRich 4]

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This post was started because I found it amusing that some people will not jump without an AAD. I don't think they are a waste of money at all. I just find it amusing that they need to have one to jump. WHat ever makes them feel safe is fine with me.

I share your amusement on that. But I think everyone ought to use an altimeter on every jump. And the reason I think differently on those two pieces of equipement is this: The altimeter can save your life on every single jump. The AAD most likely will never be needed to save your life. Thus, the frequency of usefullness is the deciding factor for me. Something that can help me on every single jump is far more valuable than something that will likely never be needed at all.

That's not to say that AAD's aren't valuable or that people shouldn't use them. I'm just saying that given the relative merits of altimeters and AAD's, I think the altimeter is far more important. After all, if you use the altimeter properly, you probably won't need the AAD.

[JohnRich 4]

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Depend on a gadget and sooner or later you will probably pay - hopefully not dearly...

You don't want to depend upon your altimeter - you want to recognize altitude from looking at the ground with your eyeballs too. However, the way to learn that is to use an altimeter for reference, and note how the ground looks at different altitudes. You can't learn that without the altimeter for reference. That's how you prepare yourself for an altimeter failure some day, so that you trust your eyeballs.

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Someone said (and I paraphrase) "but what about jumping at a new DZ?". Believe me guys...4k here is the same 4k there and it looks very much the same.

I disagree. Flat desert land with nothing but low scrub brush can make your altitude appear drastically different from rolling hills with 100' tall forest trees. The reference points you use on the ground for determining "size", and therefore altitude, vary.

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Even over water if you have that "over water" experience to draw on.

Highly experienced people have cutaway too high over open water and died. An altimeter will prevent that.

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How's that for a 300-jump wonder?

Not good.

[JohnRich 4]

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It's not a matter of who's smart and who's stupid. It's a personal risk management decision.

I agree with that, with a qualification: you have to be experienced enough first in order to properly make that decision intelligently.

We do not want jumpers right off of student status to start jumping without altimeters. They should use an altimeter for hundreds of jumps first, to gain the experience needed to make that decision intelligently for themselves.

You don't want to turn a teenager loose with a sports car, before he's had some driver safety classes and experience handling the car in different road conditions. Ditto with skydivers and altimeters.

[JohnRich 4]

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if anything, I probably tend to pull a little higher when not wearing an alti.

Uh-huh, and that can create danger too, for others above and behind you who are counting on you to pull at a lower altitude...

[JohnRich 4]

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>So, let's say you exit at 10,000 feet instead of the 13,500' to which
>your internal timer is set. What's your internal timer going to do now?

Well, I was on a 4 way FF that got out lower than usual. My internal 6k alarm went off at 4k and 2 of the guys I was with ended up pulling at 1500. A person's internal time sense alarm can be easily fooled.

Looking at the ground is a lot more reliable, but it's not as easy for newbies to gauge as many of the high number jumpers seem to think it should be for us new guys.

Thank you for helping to make my case, with a personal example.

When exiting lower than usual, you need to remember to check your altitude sooner and more often. An altimeter sure is a handy thing to have for that purpose.

[JohnRich 4]

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My Neptune... just dies when I most need it if I forget to put in new batteries...

Yep. But some visual altimeters are purely mechanical devices that rely upon air pressure alone to function - not batteries. They will "always" work and be there for you. You don't have to remember to change the batteries, nor worry about when it will fail on you prematurely.

Steve Snyder's old-fashioned barometric "Altimaster" altimeter can be considered to be far superior to the new electronic battery-powered devices.

[billvon 3,049]

> But some visual altimeters are purely mechanical devices that rely
> upon air pressure alone to function - not batteries. They
> will "always" work and be there for you.

I've had a few students who manage to whack their altimeters on exit and break them. One of my altimeters (an Alti-V) occasionally got stuck at 6000 feet after it had been dropped; I didn't keep that one very long. Another one of our loaner altimeters had its indicator hand fall off for apparently no reason.

They're good instruments but (as with any mechanical device) should be viewed with a little suspicion.

[EvilLurker 2]

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One of my altimeters (an Alti-V) occasionally got stuck at 6000 feet after it had been dropped; I didn't keep that one very long.

No, I think you sold it to me.

Just kidding, but that's a weird coincidence. Mine was never dropped, that I know of. Maybe I hit it on the door. No telling. Now imagine it sticking at 3500 for a low-timer and you have a scary scenario.

[JohnRich 4]

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> But some visual altimeters are purely mechanical devices that rely
> upon air pressure alone to function - not batteries. They
> will "always" work and be there for you.

They're good instruments but (as with any mechanical device) should be viewed with a little suspicion.

That's why I put the "always" in quotes. Nothing's perfect. But an altimeter that doesn't require batteries is more perfect than one that does.

[Reginald 0]

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I still wear mine most of the time for one reason: It is not a problem to exit the plane and deploy at proper altitude w/o looking at visual alti (especially if you jump with a group of people and use a Pro-Track). Usually, I only look at my alti twice - before the exit and after I am fully open. However, I don’t think I am already good enough to judge the altitude by eyeball in case of serious problems such as aircraft emergency, midair canopy collision or any problems with main canopy below 2000 ft.

AGREED!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Superfletch 1]

I've jumped from time to time without an altimeter. I don't hardly ever look at it anymore so I don't feel it's a must. I rarely even take one on hop and pops if I'm rushing to the plane, just grab my rig and go. Occassionally when I'm flying video, one of the tandem masters will take mine because they forgot theirs or if I'm putting out students and find that theirs doesn't work on the way up I give them mine.

I try to take one on every freefall, just to have it, but as I said before I rarely look. When I do look I'm usually where I thought I should be and I can't say that I have ever been surprised.

I feel pretty comfortable without one but I highly recommend that everyone use one.

Gary "Superfletch" Fletcher
D-26145; USPA Coach, IAD/I, AFF/I
Videographer/Photographer

[Fast 0]

I am also in the "I have done it because I couldn't find / forgot / loaned it out to someone in the plane" crowd. I am comfortable going w/o it. I don't do it on a regular basis because its nice to have as a reference and in high stress situations. I used to wear an audible but its broke atm. I will probally wear it again when I get it fixed.

There is someone at my DZ who has made close to or over 10,000 skydives w/o a visual or audible so it can be done.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[nate_1979 9]

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That's why I put the "always" in quotes. Nothing's perfect. But an altimeter that doesn't require batteries is more perfect than one that does.

Take care of the digital altimiter like your supposed to with all of your gear... When using a digital altimiter, that means using the batteries that are recomended by the mfg, making sure that it's updated, and not jumping it when the battery indicator says that it's gonna die.. I trust my Neptune, and I know that if it fails it wont "stick" at 6,000 ft.. If it fails, I'll have immediate knowledge that it's failed as soon as I look at it instead of a false reading.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[billvon 3,049]

>But an altimeter that doesn't require batteries is more perfect than one that does.

Not sure if I buy that! I've used AAD's both without batteries and with, and the one with batteries was a MUCH better device. You have to maintain it of course. Also, I always knew when my Digitude failed; the display would go blank. I'd have to look two or three times to realize my Alti V was stuck again. That seems like a bad failure mode.

[speedy 0]

It's interesting that in a number of posts people have said, " I have jumped without an altimeter and I did not pull low, if anything I pulled high". How the hell did they know at what height they pulled? Don't you need an altimeter for this? And if their eyes are so good at judging height why did they pull high?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[kelpdiver 2]

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I trust my Neptune, and I know that if it fails it wont "stick" at 6,000 ft.. If it fails, I'll have immediate knowledge that it's failed as soon as I look at it instead of a false reading.

How can you be so sure of this?

I've seen dive computers fail in ways that boggle the mind. Press the light button on an Oceanic Dataplus and watch your depth meter rocket down to 150ft, then right back to your own depth, but now with a 62 min deco obligation. WTF?

There's been a lot of anecdotal stories about the neptune acting a bit funky, then better with a fresh battery change. You're probably right that it won't stick at 6000ft. But will you have instant knowledge if it fails - I wouldn't bet on it. Two of the three firmware updates this year have included improvements to the battery test. The Alti-3 hasn't been updated at all.

[Beverly 1]

A bit late on this one, but regulation in SA require at least 50% of the formation to have visual alti's for 8 or less people and 25% of 8 or more.

For camera, it is mandatory.

I use my alti for students, and under canopy.
I always have my audible and i am getting a neptune for more accurate measurements for landings.

My one issue, is where are you after/just before a cutaway if you don't have a visual alti, and there is the chance of the audible going flat....

I suppose it is what makes you comfortable.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa