reserve repacks

[loudawg 0]

You guys are kinda scaring me here. Don't you realize that this parachute is your last chance at survival? Yeah, believe it or not, that little pouch on your back is the difference between life and death. Is it really worth saving a few extra dollars? Personally, the good mindset that I get knowing my reserve was recently re-checked and packed is worth the money in itself. It's like your car. If you think that final payment is the last you're gonna put into your car (besides gas), then you are quite mistaken. Just think of this all as a normal checkup, or preventative maintenance or something...it's all part of the entire picture :-)

~Lou

[sundevil777 102]

Of course we know what importance the reserve holds.

Do it every week if you want, but stick around for a couple decades or at least a few years before coming to such a firm conclusion that 180 or 360 days is unreasonable.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[ryoder 1,590]

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You guys are kinda scaring me here. Don't you realize that this parachute is your last chance at survival? Yeah, believe it or not, that little pouch on your back is the difference between life and death. Is it really worth saving a few extra dollars? Personally, the good mindset that I get knowing my reserve was recently re-checked and packed is worth the money in itself. It's like your car. If you think that final payment is the last you're gonna put into your car (besides gas), then you are quite mistaken. Just think of this all as a normal checkup, or preventative maintenance or something...it's all part of the entire picture :-)

~Lou

I am a rigger, so reserve repacks cost me nothing. I am very concerned about the well-being of my reserve, so I oppose unnecessary excessive maintenance of it which causes needless wear. I am not alone in this position:

http://www.pia.com/piapubs/pia_position_on_a_180_day_repack.htm

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[d604 0]

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Just as many bad things can happen in 120 days if a jumper doesn't take care of their gear. The number of days is less important than the care an owner takes.

Exactly, sometimes when I hand a rig back to an owner after giving it a repack I say “OK, you’re reasonable for it’s airworthiness.” Most of the time a get a confused look, and explain if you see something let myself or another rigger know, or if you leave it out side at night your looking for trouble, etc. They then understand what I meant.
Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[d604 0]

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180 days in Canada
But the interesting part is that rumors are circulating that might be changed to 1 year...

Yah, that’s just a rumor. There is no talk at the moment of that happening.
Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[billvon 2,991]

>Don't you realize that this parachute is your last chance at survival?

Yeah. But why do you think that a reserve that has been repacked 120 days ago is safer than one that has been repacked 180 days ago?

Note that sometimes that is indeed the case. 120 days is a good number for gear with indifferent maintenance. And there are certainly cases (water landing, damp climates, student/rental gear, landing on damp grass often etc) where it makes sense to go even _less_ than 120 days because you suspect damage.

But all things considered, if you have a rig that's 12 years old, it's safer if it's been repacked 12 times (and maintained well) than if it's been repacked 36, especially if you have a tiny reserve. Repacking a reserve causes wear, and heavily loaded F111 reserves need to be nearly new to be landed at high loadings. Heck, PD requires a reserve porosity test at 40 repacks for just that reason.

Or you could repack it often _and_ change the reserve after 20-30 repacks just to be safe, but then you are basically testing a new reserve every time you need to use it. Reserve manufacturing defects are rare but do happen, and every time you change the reserve you run the risk of misassembly of the reserve.

[slug 1]

Hi Loudawg

In the spirit of cooperation I suggest you do a search on this websight for your concerns, and ask your rigger and the riggers forum to gain some real world knowledge.

Example:I would not store my rig in the trunk of a black car in arizona in the summer time for more than x minutes/hrs/days/weeks and expect anything to work.

I would store my rig in my closet in my temperature controled home in the summer in arizona for 120 days and expect it to work.
See the Difference?

R.I.P.

[loudawg 0]

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Yeah. But why do you think that a reserve that has been repacked 120 days ago is safer than one that has been repacked 180 days ago?

Ok, I'm not saying 180 days is unreasonable. Actually, I think that would be ok. It's just that some people are pushing for a year or more, and it seems to me that this is being taken a little too lightly by some. I mean, think about what your rig goes through in a year. It is shuffled around quite a bit, left sitting in all kinds of places for (maybe) long periods of time, etc.

Is there really that much wear on a reserve during a re-pack? Look at the abuse the mains go through on a regular basis. I'm assuming a reserve pack is done in a much more controlled, caring environment.

Now, with this said, I have to also remind you all that I am a newbie. I don't even have my A (damn near getting it, though), so I'm still learning a lot, and I appreciate the comments and insight I've received. I'm just going off of what I believe to be common sense, and considering this is a very important issue, I am leaning more toward the conservative side, and I think I would rather see my reserve inspected and packed more than once a year.

I guess everyone's circumstances and situtations are different, so there are a lot of variables which would affect the quality of the reserve.

Flame away
~Lou

[scottjaco 0]

I've never really understood why repacking a reserve causes wear. It may effect the porosity slightly over time but I can't imagine the reserve failing from too many pack jobs, especially if it's never been used.

Have any riggers out there had a problem with a reserve being packed too many times to be airworthy? This question is regarding modern style reserves (7-cell F1-11).

[slug 1]

Hi Loudawg

I haven't seen any flames or smoke. Sounds to me like you've already learned a lot. The main thing is their are lots of variables that you can control.

This is cyber space I may have less experience than you do. Don't be afraid to ask the local rigger.

BTW the number of repacks allowed on your reserve is determined by the reserve manufactor, Who has your best interests at heart

The time allowed between reserve repacks is determined by The Feds. USPA has your best interests at heart and has been, is, and will continue to work their butts off on getting the feds to change the regulations.

I hope you don't consider this a flame on you, The gear manufactors or USPA. Trust me

R.I.P.

[BlindBrick 0]

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Is there really that much wear on a reserve during a re-pack? Look at the abuse the mains go through on a regular basis. I'm assuming a reserve pack is done in a much more controlled, caring environment.

There have been some test that indicate that /some/ reserves fall below aceptable porosity levels after being packed only twelve times. So in theory, the 180 day repack cycle /could/ add 50% to the life of your reserve.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[d604 0]

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You guys are kinda scaring me here. Don't you realize that this parachute is your last chance at survival?

Not to go somewhat off topic but your reserve is not your last chance; it’s your best chance. If you’re low, or cannot land your main parachute, the reserve parachute is your best chance at survival.

Packing a reserve is one of the worst things you can do to a reserve. When I was taking my rigger course I repacked one of my rigs about the equivalent of ten times in three months and I noticed a change in how the parachute ‘felt’ while packing it. I’ve packed a lot of f-111 parachutes and have a good feel for how a nearly new f-111 parachutes feels and how a less than nearly new f-111 parachute feels. Obviously this is subjective to my over ten years experience packing parachutes, but I did feel a difference.

And, yes jumping a reserve can be hard on it too. Fast opening, then landing in a field with bristles does reduce the effectiveness of the parachute. Also, how the reserve is picked up after the jump is very important. When I have landed after a reserve ride, I’ll take the harness off, walk the harness to the parachute, carefully lift the lines up off the ground and daisy chain, and then carefully lift as straight up as possible the parachute. This reduces the chance of picking up a thorn (or similar) that might cause un-needed wear on a parachute.
Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[loudawg 0]

I wasn't taking any of this is a flame, slug. I was just trying to be a good sport in the event that someone did wanna flame me...hehe...thanks for the comments.

[newsstand 0]

Not to be picky here but we are talking about "re-packs" not packing a reserve that has been used. Seems to me that a reserve that has been used should be re-packed right away and not wait for the end of the 120 cycle in the US.
It also seems to me that manufacturers could come up with recomended repack cycles pretty easily if they were willing to spend a little on research. Yes I am willing to pay a couple of dollars extra for that research.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[mjosparky 4]

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Not to be picky here but we are talking about "re-packs" not packing a reserve that has been used. Seems to me that a reserve that has been used should be re-packed right away and not wait for the end of the 120 cycle in the US.
It also seems to me that manufacturers could come up with recomended repack cycles pretty easily if they were willing to spend a little on research. Yes I am willing to pay a couple of dollars extra for that research.

Do you even have a clue as to what research, development and testing equipment manufactures have done? Do you think that modern sports gear just happened. There is a huge body of knowledge developed by gear manufactures over the past 40 + years.
To receive a TSO the gear you wear has been tested to +200 degrees and -40 degrees. It has spent 400 hours, yes 400 hours, under a 200 pound load while packed. It has to pass just over 70 drop tests and something like 12 live jumps. The manufactures of you gear spend a great deal of money on "research".
When a reserve is used it is repacked. You do not wait until the re-pack cycle is up to pack it. You should spend some time learning about your gear and its upkeep.

[newsstand 0]

OK so the research is already done. How often does PD think a reserve should be re-packed? Following their recommendations makes a lot more sense that what appears to be an abitrary amount of time selected by the government.

Did you notice the smiley face? I was making a joke about the re-pack of a reserve that had been used.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[mjosparky 4]

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OK so the research is already done. How often does PD think a reserve should be re-packed? Following their recommendations makes a lot more sense that what appears to be an abitrary amount of time selected by the government.

Did you notice the smiley face? I was making a joke about the re-pack of a reserve that had been used.

Sorry I missed the smiley. I am not sure what PD's stand on the repack cycle is. You might contact them and ask.
The repack cycle used to be 60 days for all rigs, but through efforts of the skydiving community it is now 120 for most sports rigs. The 60 days is still in effect for any rig containing natural materials. i.e. cotton, silk. The repack cycle is not completely arbitrary, the FAA is charged with our protection. But they are very slow in changing things.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[slug 1]

Hi MJOsparky

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Sorry I missed the smiley. I am not sure what PD's stand on the repack cycle is. You might contact them and ask.
The repack cycle used to be 60 days for all rigs, but through efforts of the skydiving community it is now 120 for most sports rigs. The 60 days is still in effect for any rig containing natural materials. i.e. cotton, silk. The repack cycle is not completely arbitrary, the FAA is charged with our protection. But they are very slow in changing things.

I may be mistaken but I don't believe the present leadership at USPA had anything to do with extending the repack cycle to 120 days.

Yes The FAA is slow in changing things, but USPA has failed it's membership by failing to lobby the FAA aggessivly enough to extend the repack cycle.

As far as PD's opinion on the repack cycle/ they have a vested interest in keeping the cycle as is. They can sell more reserve's.

Paraflight also makes reserve's and they will test the porisity of their reserves (a quantifable objective test) for basically the cost of postage. Why can't PD do the same? because they don't want to! It's not in their best interests.

Let stop blowing smoke, blaming the FAA etc and call a it what is Failure of USPA to represent their members due to _______ fill in the blanks.

R.I.P.

[mjosparky 4]

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I may be mistaken but I don't believe the present leadership at USPA had anything to do with extending the repack cycle to 120 days.

I didn't say anything about USPA, you did. The present leadership didn't have anything to do with banning Blast handles, so what. The leadership at the time of the change had something to do with it.

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Yes The FAA is slow in changing things, but USPA has failed it's membership by failing to lobby the FAA aggessivly enough to extend the repack cycle.

Again, I did not mention USPA, you did. USPA lobbied aggressively enough to get the repack cycle extended from 60 to 120 days. I am not aware of all their efforts in respect to the 180 day repack cycle and I doubt if you do.

Para-Flite (not Paraflight) has not made a reserve for the sports market in some 15 years. Comparing them to PD is comparing apples to oranges. It makes no sense.

Lets stop blowing smoke and share with us what your personal problem is with USPA.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JohnMitchell 16]

***Who cares about who gets fined... let's be safe, fer cryin' out loud.

[JohnMitchell 16]

***
I am a rigger, so reserve repacks cost me nothing. I am very concerned about the well-being of my reserve, so I oppose unnecessary excessive maintenance of it which causes needless wear. I am not alone in this position:

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What's the matter, somebody break your pencil?

Seriously, I agree with you. Once a year is enough for light planes. I'm okay with that for my reserve, if properly stored. (cool, dark, and dry)

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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It's not dangeroous to jump an out of date reserve. I'd much rather jump a five year old reserve pack that's been properly stored than a 3 month old job that's been sitting in a hot car trunk.

Unless your Cypres batteries have now leaked acid all over your reserve.

Getting fined and getting the pilot in trouble should be reason enough to keep your reserve and AAD in date.

Environmental conditions, how the rig is treated, rig maintenance, number of jumps on the rig, and how old the rig is can all affect how long it can go without being re-packed and still be safe. Unfortunately it isn't practical to have a rule that determines when you reserve is due for re-packed based on those factors. The only way to do it is every X number of days. Some rigs shouldn’t even go the full 120 days. Some can go a lot longer.

Derek

[d604 0]

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Not to be picky here but we are talking about "re-packs" not packing a reserve that has been used. Seems to me that a reserve that has been used should be re-packed right away and not wait for the end of the 120 cycle in the US.

I’m a little confused about why you made that comment in response to me, despite having the smiley face, but anywho…

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It also seems to me that manufacturers could come up with recomended repack cycles pretty easily if they were willing to spend a little on research. Yes I am willing to pay a couple of dollars extra for that research.

Although, manufactures like PD may not have an official stand on length of repack cycles PD does have a # of repack cycle life for their reserves.

Sean

CSPA ratings C1, C2, IA, IB, QE, RA, and EJR

[newsstand 0]

Because in the cases you described there was no choice but to pack the reserve before using it again. The thread, at least as I read it, is about opening up a packed reserve, inspecting it, and repacking. At what point are we doing more harm than good? Your experience with the degradation of the canopy after several re-packs helps to bolster the argument that it is possible to do it too oftern.

On the other hand if a person is not storing the rig properly a frequent re-pack cycle might save their life even if it shortens the useful life of the canopy.

I don't have enough experience in this area to have an opinion, only questions. It would seem to me that a properly packed and stored reserve should be good for a fairly long period of time. However if it gets dumped in saltwater, thrown in the trunk and left to mold for a week or two it is probably not much use to anyone.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[billvon 2,991]

>How often does PD think a reserve should be re-packed?

PD has stated that they would be OK with a 360 day repack cycle.