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labrys

Am I just (ummm) sniveling about sniveling?

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I’m starting to wonder if I’m just a crybaby. I recently downsized from a Hornet 190 to a Sabre2 170. When I bought the Hornet I was loading it at about 1:1 and I lost some weight over the year or so that I jumped it. When I first got it I was really happy with the openings but in the last months it seemed to me that it would snivel FOREVER. I never used to look at my alti right before I pulled but I got into the habit because I was curious.

I’d consistently pull between 3500-3000 feet and not have a canopy ready for a control check until 2500-2000. I guess that isn’t horrible but it was always a little closer to my hard deck than I liked. Someone suggested that loading the thing too lightly might contribute to a longer snivel. That seemed logical to me. I’m loading the Sabre2 at about 1:1 also and wouldn’t think that would be too lightly loaded but the damn thing behaves the same way. Pretty consistently takes 1000 feet before I have all 9 cells and feel ready to grab the toggles.

I stopped rolling the nose on the Hornet to see if that helped and have done the same with the Sabre2. It doesn’t seem to matter very much. Is 1000 feet really not that bad and I’m just too sensitive and vulnerable?
Owned by Remi #?

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I would rather have the canopy snivel... than to have me sniveling...

I got a larger slider to slow down my openings.. perhaps the rigger dudes can speak to a smaller one to speed yours up... if that is what you REALLLLLLLLLY wanna do.

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I stopped rolling the nose on the Hornet to see if that helped and have done the same with the Sabre2. It doesn’t seem to matter very much.



I was just about to comment that it sounds like a packing issue. You should really only roll the nose IF you have a quick opening canopy and you want to slow it down. With 1000 ft openings, it's obviously not necessary.

What size is your pilot chute? Do you feel the snatch force almost right away or does there seem to be some hesitation? How big is your slider? Does it seem to hang up there or come down fairly quickly? Are these all terminal openings or hop & pops?

I can't speak for the Hornet, but the Sabre2 is a slow inflating canopy. Personally speaking, my Spectre takes anywhere from 600 ft - 1000 ft to open completely & I LOVE it! No hard openings for this girl. ;) I'm loaded 1:1 on mine, but I don't think wing loading has much to do with how quickly/slowly a canopy opens (correct me if I'm wrong guys).

If you think your pc is the right size for your parachute (refer to your main parachute owner's manual) and you would like to speed the opening a bit, consider trying a smaller slider. I would suggest having someone with a lot of canopy experience pack and jump it for you first to see what they think before changing anything, though.

Or...you could try pulling in a track, not slowing down from freefly speed, or leaving your slider about 1/2 inch away from the stops to speed things up. I heard that any one of these will give you a real whopper! :P Just kidding don't do this. :S

Better slow than fast, in my opinion, but what the hell do I know? :)

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

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What size is your pilot chute? Do you feel the snatch force almost right away or does there seem to be some hesitation? How big is your slider? Does it seem to hang up there or come down fairly quickly? Are these all terminal openings or hop & pops?



Not sure about the measurements on the PC or slider. I'm going to have a chat with a couple of riggers in a few days about this...

Yes, I feel a hesitation after I pull. Great question... My PC is the same one I had with my original Hornet 210 before the 190. I assumed it was ok for the 170.

The slider hangs up there. That's pretty much the definition of snivel, isn't it?

These are all terminal openings.

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Better slow than fast, in my opinion, but what the hell do I know?



Sounds like you know sumptin at least ;)

Edited to add:

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I don't think wing loading has much to do with how quickly/slowly a canopy opens



It seemed logical to me because the extreme of lightly loaded would be not loaded at all...

Imagine just throwing a canopy into the air with nothing or very little hanging from it. Would it open slower or faster than with a load?
Owned by Remi #?

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I have a bumper sticker on my truck which reads "No Snivelling!"

I am quite interested in the art of making canopies open fast. Some of my experience may be applicable, but note that my canopies are pretty different from yours (mine are generally F-111, 7 cell, fairly large, and using mesh sliders), so take this all with a grain or three of salt.

Here are some things that strike me:

1) If your snivel is the result of the slider descending slowly, have you tried grabbing the risers and pumping the slider down? This might give you a faster opening when you do it, and hence give you soft openings that you can manage on the fly.

2) If you change out the slider, you'll definitely effect the opening speed. Changing dimensions is one way to do this, but so is changing slider material. I've seen a noticeable difference between ZP and F-111 sliders, although I'll admit that the bulk of my slider material changes have been between large and small hole mesh.

3) Wing loading has definitely effected my opening speeds. Higher wingloadings and smaller canopies both open faster for me.


I'd say as a first step, try pumping the risers and see if that does what you want.

Of course, you could always throw on a large mesh slider and cut some bottom skin inlets into that canopy. I'd bet that would give you openings that were plenty fast enough for you. ;)
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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If your snivel is the result of the slider descending slowly, have you tried grabbing the risers and pumping the slider down? This might give you a faster opening when you do it, and hence give you soft openings that you can manage on the fly.



I haven't tried this but I will. After the slider finally comes down over about 3/4 way I usually start then because it takes a few tugs to get the endcells to open. Trying a little earlier sounds reasonable. Thanks.
Owned by Remi #?

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Or...you could try pulling in a track



Um huh. Been there, done that... never again. [:/]

First my head bounced off my left shoulder, then it bounced off my right shoulder, then I took my knees in the chin. It smarts....
Owned by Remi #?

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Ouch! I did the "pull w/o slowing down enough from freefly speed" one and that wasn't pretty. My coach shot my opening from below and I was all legs and line twists...not to mention it didn't feel so hot. On the bright side, the bruises turned pretty colors. B|:$

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

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Hi Labrys

Some F111 canopies used to have a reputation for sniveling after "X" number of jumps.

We bought our cruise light brand new rolled the nose and had nice openings, around 500 jumps the SOB started to snivel real bad so we packed it nose fully exposed, pumped the brakes on opening like our lives depended on it, and cut a big hole (coffee can size) in the slider. Nothing helpedpeople were telling us it wasn't a snivel it waas a mal:(

When we finally gave up on the snivelly pos we got a new Sabre 170 and the first time we packed it we left the nose fully exposed B|.

Oops different canopy:S roll the shit out of the nose.

Talk with the riggers and other people that jump the sme canopy, find out how their packing if it works for them it should work for you, Unless you got a ragged out canopy or it's out of trim.

A slow opening is better than fast unless you have to pull/go out low[:/]

R.I.P.

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I have a Sabre 2 170 and load it about the same as you.

I also have a lot less jumps than you so this is just me saying what my experience has been.

I was first taught to push the nose into the centre of the pack job. THis gave me 1000ft snivells and at less than 40 jumps I found it pretty freaky. I then got told just to drop the nose instead of pushing it in it into the pack job and the excessive snivells stopped. As soon as I'm stood upright I grab and spread the rear risers then pull them down to get the slider to drop and end cells to open. Now I'm normally all open slider collapsed etc by 700ft.


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Someone suggested that loading the thing too lightly might contribute to a longer snivel.




Who told you this? You should ask them why my Velo snivels for 800ft when I load it at 2.4 to 1.

I would suggest asking one of the top canopy pilots at your home DZ for help. Chances are they could get you straightened out within a few jumps.

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Both of my Sabre2’s have about 800-foot openings. I love it that way. You should too. ;) I pull at 3,000 and have a canopy ready to collapse the slider, etc at 2,200 feet.

Given all the trash talk about Sabre2’s lately and hard openings, I honestly find it a bit funny to see a thread about too soft of openings!
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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Who told you this? You should ask them why my Velo snivels for 800ft when I load it at 2.4 to 1.



No one "told" me this was the issue. They suggested it was possible. It was a possibility offered by an experienced, well respected person if not a top canopy pilot.

I'm not sure why claiming that a highly loaded velo snivels 800 feet means that the wingloading isn't a factor. Does it snivel more when it's less loaded and less when it's loaded more all other factors like slider and packing technique remaining the same?
Owned by Remi #?

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Dunno about wingloading being a factor in any given canopy. I do know that I like quick openings (less than 500'). Not slammers -- there's a big difference.

Pack very neatly, don't roll anything you don't have to. Go to a rigger's a few times and watch him pack reserves -- they open pretty quick, right? Ask for hints.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Someone suggested that loading the thing too lightly might contribute to a longer snivel.




Who told you this? You should ask them why my Velo snivels for 800ft when I load it at 2.4 to 1.



I wasn't the original person to say that, but I did say it.

I'd guess that your velocity snivels because of the canopy design. I've found that canopy design is usually more important than wingloading or canopy size in determining opening characteristics. This does not mean that wingloading or canopy size are not factors, especially when considering the differences in openings between canopies of the same model which are loaded differently.



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I would suggest asking one of the top canopy pilots at your home DZ for help.



I'm uncertain as to how canopy piloting skills relate to knowledge about canopy openings. Can you explain how these things are related?

Personally, I'd ask a rigger for advice about this long before I'd ask a swooper.


edit: I think I may have taken that the wrong way. After coming back and checking profiles, I see that you guys are at the same DZ, which makes me think that was actually an offer to help solve the problem. Having an experienced jumper actually working on the problem, and potentially jumping the gear to check it out in person, is always going to be a better solution than relying on folks on the internet, who can't actually get their hands into the gear.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Personally, I don't think reducing the size of the slider area by 10% would present much of a risk of turning a mega-snivveler like that into a slammer. I will ask one thing, though: are you sure your steering lines are adjusted correctly and you don't have some extra slack? That could explain it, in my opinion (but I've never owned/jumped a Sabre2, so it's pure speculation).

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Having an experienced jumper actually working on the problem, and potentially jumping the gear to check it out in person, is always going to be a better solution than relying on folks on the internet, who can't actually get their hands into the gear.



I think if you go back to my original post you'll see that my question was really more about whether it was reasonable to feel uncomfortable about a 1000 foot snivel than to solicite advice about how to change my gear.

I appreciate any feedback, including gear suggestions, but I wasn't looking for anything more than that. When I'm given reasonable advice I think it over and then I ask more experienced people what they think about it.

I respect and value the knowledge that the more experienced jumpers at my DZ share. Most of them share it with warmth and generosity. I also know that if I approach someone I know and trust with a good question I'll get a good answer.

But, I also enjoy being able to share what other people have said and get their feedback on other people's opinions while I learn. I'm not looking for alternate sources of information than I can get from the people who have trained me, I"m looking to approach them armed with as much information as I can be and hear what they have to say about what I've gathered.

I think anyone that knows me even a little (Dave) will know that I"m not going to sit around in my living room with a pair of scissors hacking at my slider because someone suggested it on the Internet
Owned by Remi #?

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...whether it was reasonable to feel uncomfortable about a 1000 foot snivel...


I wouldn't feel comfortable with it, just for the fact that I've made jumps where the exit altitude was 1900 feet. That would be a scenario where you could reasonably expect a Cypres to result in a two-out situation. It would be a bad thing if you had an in-flight emergency and didn't use your reserve, too. I'd be wondering when my 1000 foot snivel might turn into to a 1500 foot snivel, too. I get nice soft openings with a canopy that snivels for about 400 feet, I can't see why more than that is "normal" or desirable. Not the same canopy type, though, so maybe 600 or 700 would be okay.

***...I"m not going to sit around in my living room with a pair of scissors hacking at my slider because someone suggested it on the Internet ..."
Heh..heh, no, not a good idea, but I'd bet PD would send you a replacement loaner to try that's one size smaller and you would get an idea if you're on the right track to fixing it. From reading all the "hard opening" Sabre2 posts, it sounds like that canopy is particular about slider size being correct (or I'm full of crap). ;)

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I've had a long sniveling canopy (usually 800-1000ft) ... I have had NO problems on hop-n-pops, including my exit altitude of 2000 ft.. Remember, on a H&P the canopy opens in LESS distance covered than it does on a terminal jump, it takes longer, but takes less altitude to complete opening...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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I have had NO problems on hop-n-pops, including my exit altitude of 2000 ft.. Remember, on a H&P the canopy opens in LESS distance covered than it does on a terminal jump, it takes longer, but takes less altitude to complete opening...


Yeah, you're right. How tight was your ass puckered when you exited is the real question. ;)
A canopy that snivels for 1000 feet is how many seconds from when you throw the PC till you're open? About 10 or 12 seconds, right? I've NEVER seen a canopy that takes that much time to be open, but I'll take your word for it.

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