kelel01 1 #1 April 12, 2004 Here's the situation, and maybe there's no grounds for the subject line. But after seeing many people go off on this very subject, I feel that my interpretation of the situation just might be correct, but I am well aware of the fact that I am not allowed to say anything, being a newbie and all. There's a certain someone who jumps at one of the DZ's I frequent, and he wears a top-mount camera helmet. He has ~60 jumps. He also flies head-down in said top-mount camera helmet, with ~60 jumps. Am I out of line for thinking that that is ridiculously unsafe? Shouldn't an instructor or ANY experienced jumper step up and say something? Perhaps the other fun jumpers don't know how few jumps he has, but I know that the instructors know-- the boy doesn't even have his A license, for Pete's sake. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #2 April 12, 2004 QuoteShouldn't an instructor or ANY experienced jumper step up and say something? Why, then people will think he is old...And bald. Its so much more cool to let people do what they want."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 April 12, 2004 Maybe the instructors have said something. At that point its really up to the S&TA and the DZO.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #4 April 12, 2004 I am sure someone has said something to this guy and I am just as sure he blew it off. As Dave said the DZO or the S&TA with the DZO's backing are the only ones that can force him to be smart instead of cool. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #5 April 12, 2004 I've heard that if you are an experienced jumper and say stuff, then people think you are being a dick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #6 April 12, 2004 Have you flown with the guy? Is he good, or does he actually suck? Does anyone else ever mention 'that guy is a fucking nut, he's gonna take someone out one day'? Basing it upon pure jump numbers is rather narrow and shouldn't be so cut and dry. What do the instructors and staff there say about it if you ask them? I've jumped with people with 50 jumps and have a solid sit, other people take much longer. Tunnel time is also a factor. Saying you're flying head-down doesn't mean you really are, either :> -Rory QuoteHere's the situation, and maybe there's no grounds for the subject line. But after seeing many people go off on this very subject, I feel that my interpretation of the situation just might be correct, but I am well aware of the fact that I am not allowed to say anything, being a newbie and all. There's a certain someone who jumps at one of the DZ's I frequent, and he wears a top-mount camera helmet. He has ~60 jumps. He also flies head-down in said top-mount camera helmet, with ~60 jumps. Am I out of line for thinking that that is ridiculously unsafe? Shouldn't an instructor or ANY experienced jumper step up and say something? Perhaps the other fun jumpers don't know how few jumps he has, but I know that the instructors know-- the boy doesn't even have his A license, for Pete's sake. Kelly You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #7 April 12, 2004 >Shouldn't an instructor or ANY experienced jumper step up and say something? Sure. You can too. I have found that most people like that pay as much heed to newer jumpers as they do to instructors i.e. none. So your comment will have the same effect as anyone else's. And who knows? Maybe if he hears it from enough people it will sink in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #8 April 12, 2004 Well, he's not bad, but he's no wonder kid either. But I guess I should butt out, since the DZ manager said, "So how'd that video turn out?". It's a camcorder mounted on a Pro-Tec. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #9 April 12, 2004 It's already been addressed with the jumper in question, however, he doesn't really care what we think about his choice. Going back to what Aggie said, there's little we can do other than bring it up with the DZO and S&TA. From that point it's in their hands. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #10 April 12, 2004 I had no idea. Thanks, Ian. I was just going on the comment mentioned in my prior post said by you-know-who. Well, that makes me feel better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #11 April 12, 2004 Actually we're fully aware of how he flys, unlike yourself. He isn't ready, but blows us off....but then again, everyone thinks they are....right Kaerock? QuoteBasing it upon pure jump numbers is rather narrow and shouldn't be so cut and dry. I don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments. There's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. QuoteGuys aren't nearly as sexy on roller skates. Well that's cause you've never seen me on rollerskates...although you did see the whole "sock thing"...sorry you had to be subjected to that!! Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #12 April 12, 2004 No problem Kelly. The reality is that people have and will make poor choices (myself included). We can only educate them on their choices and hope they realize the situation they're placing themselves in. After that, it's up to them they're adults and have to live with the consequences of their actions as minor or severe as they may be. Unfortunately, so do we See you this weekend? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #13 April 12, 2004 ***I don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments. There's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. =================================== Besides, who the hell is shooting video in the tunnel? How does whatever you do in the tunnel make you ready for video? There's way more than getting the shot, and that in itself is a tricky proposition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #14 April 12, 2004 QuoteI don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments Yep just like I say about canopies and wingloads...Xnumber of jumps is only x number of LANDINGS...and thats very important. QuoteThere's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. I REALLY like that saying....I have heard it before, but I like it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #15 April 12, 2004 QuoteIt's a camcorder mounted on a Pro-Tec. Is there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelel01 1 #16 April 12, 2004 Nope, just an additional detail . . . I don't know what's important and what's not anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,990 #17 April 12, 2004 >Is there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? They are typically more snag-prone than custom camera helmets with smooth surfaces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #18 April 12, 2004 Quote>Is there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? They are typically more snag-prone than custom camera helmets with smooth surfaces. OK, just checking. At first I thought the person being mentioned was trying to be too cool and not safe enough. But a pro-tec seems to contradict that. (At least the cool part. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #19 April 13, 2004 Rory, I don't think the issue is him freeflying at 60 jumps, but jumping a camera at 60 jumps. Plus, his belly skills are most likely a bit lacking at that experience level (he prob went right to freefly off student status) - which makes you wonder how he is on deployment. You've jumped with a camera - do you think it is something simple that a new grad should be doing? I've had the pro's tell me different - I tend to believe them. That's why now at 500 jumps I am only really starting to consider putting a camera on my head._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #20 April 13, 2004 QuoteThat's why now at 500 jumps I am only really starting to consider putting a camera on my head. I'm glad I waited until when I did to put a camera on my head. Just a hair under 1000 jumps is when I did it. Honestly, it is really distracting, I would hate to think what I would have done if I had put a camera on my head at 100-ish jumps.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 April 13, 2004 Right along with people feeling that going to a small swooping canopy early on makes them cool, there are just as many people that feel to be a cool freeflyer they need to wear a camera. I usually just ask the person "Why exactly do you need to jump a camera? I feel I am not good enough to fly a camera yet, what makes you safer than me that will allow you to fly a camera?" I love watching the "amazing" videos that low jump numbers newbies get: shaky all over, never on target as they struggle with their flying, mostly pointed at the sky and not another jumper, and usually some of the worst footage I have ever seen. Then take someone with good flying skills, teach them how to use the ring and they tend to have decent footage that needs tweaking over a few hundred jumps._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Unstable 9 #22 April 13, 2004 I've always been saying that jumers should not attempt freefly until they have a firm foundation in RW. Even as A coach I get laughed at....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 236 #23 April 13, 2004 QuoteI've heard that if you are an experienced jumper and say stuff, then people think you are being a dick. Maybe. Then again, my father is Dick Naugler; I'm named after his brother & uncle, from whence comes the Winsor Naugler III. In any event, when someone is doing something that has cost me a friend or two, I try to point out to them what was the mode of demise of the jumpers in question. If I see someone doing something dangerous, I have no qualms about telling them - particularly if it threatens someone else who is not part of their game plan. I don't care if they are world champions, since I can list many world champions who were maimed or killed by similar actions; NONE of us are immune. I have been to too many funerals, and would prefer that they put off their ash dive until much later. Regarding camera, my first camera jump was in 1972 with a Instamatic Super-8 movie camera duct-taped to my helmet and a Konica 35mm stowed up my sleeve. I'm not the most experienced camera flier out there, but I pretty much know the people who are, and can pass on the recommendations they gave me. In this case I don't think it's the camera in particular that is the problem. It sounds like the kind of attitude problem that can be tough to survive in this sport - the wake-up call is often fatal. When someone responds to advice with thanks for looking out for their well-being, I think there is hope. If they try to explain that they had everything under control, I am concerned for their continued well-being. I have had people who took offense initially, but thanked me years later for taking the time to warn them. Sometimes it works, and that makes it worthwhile. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #24 April 13, 2004 Quote I've always been saying that jumers should not attempt freefly until they have a firm foundation in RW. I agree 100%.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #25 April 13, 2004 QuoteIs there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? Yes, it does not look nearly as cool...Therfore it can't be safe. 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ianmdrennan 2 #11 April 12, 2004 Actually we're fully aware of how he flys, unlike yourself. He isn't ready, but blows us off....but then again, everyone thinks they are....right Kaerock? QuoteBasing it upon pure jump numbers is rather narrow and shouldn't be so cut and dry. I don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments. There's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. QuoteGuys aren't nearly as sexy on roller skates. Well that's cause you've never seen me on rollerskates...although you did see the whole "sock thing"...sorry you had to be subjected to that!! Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #12 April 12, 2004 No problem Kelly. The reality is that people have and will make poor choices (myself included). We can only educate them on their choices and hope they realize the situation they're placing themselves in. After that, it's up to them they're adults and have to live with the consequences of their actions as minor or severe as they may be. Unfortunately, so do we See you this weekend? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #13 April 12, 2004 ***I don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments. There's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. =================================== Besides, who the hell is shooting video in the tunnel? How does whatever you do in the tunnel make you ready for video? There's way more than getting the shot, and that in itself is a tricky proposition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #14 April 12, 2004 QuoteI don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments Yep just like I say about canopies and wingloads...Xnumber of jumps is only x number of LANDINGS...and thats very important. QuoteThere's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. I REALLY like that saying....I have heard it before, but I like it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #15 April 12, 2004 QuoteIt's a camcorder mounted on a Pro-Tec. Is there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #16 April 12, 2004 Nope, just an additional detail . . . I don't know what's important and what's not anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #17 April 12, 2004 >Is there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? They are typically more snag-prone than custom camera helmets with smooth surfaces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #18 April 12, 2004 Quote>Is there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? They are typically more snag-prone than custom camera helmets with smooth surfaces. OK, just checking. At first I thought the person being mentioned was trying to be too cool and not safe enough. But a pro-tec seems to contradict that. (At least the cool part. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #19 April 13, 2004 Rory, I don't think the issue is him freeflying at 60 jumps, but jumping a camera at 60 jumps. Plus, his belly skills are most likely a bit lacking at that experience level (he prob went right to freefly off student status) - which makes you wonder how he is on deployment. You've jumped with a camera - do you think it is something simple that a new grad should be doing? I've had the pro's tell me different - I tend to believe them. That's why now at 500 jumps I am only really starting to consider putting a camera on my head._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #20 April 13, 2004 QuoteThat's why now at 500 jumps I am only really starting to consider putting a camera on my head. I'm glad I waited until when I did to put a camera on my head. Just a hair under 1000 jumps is when I did it. Honestly, it is really distracting, I would hate to think what I would have done if I had put a camera on my head at 100-ish jumps.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #21 April 13, 2004 Right along with people feeling that going to a small swooping canopy early on makes them cool, there are just as many people that feel to be a cool freeflyer they need to wear a camera. I usually just ask the person "Why exactly do you need to jump a camera? I feel I am not good enough to fly a camera yet, what makes you safer than me that will allow you to fly a camera?" I love watching the "amazing" videos that low jump numbers newbies get: shaky all over, never on target as they struggle with their flying, mostly pointed at the sky and not another jumper, and usually some of the worst footage I have ever seen. Then take someone with good flying skills, teach them how to use the ring and they tend to have decent footage that needs tweaking over a few hundred jumps._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #22 April 13, 2004 I've always been saying that jumers should not attempt freefly until they have a firm foundation in RW. Even as A coach I get laughed at....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #23 April 13, 2004 QuoteI've heard that if you are an experienced jumper and say stuff, then people think you are being a dick. Maybe. Then again, my father is Dick Naugler; I'm named after his brother & uncle, from whence comes the Winsor Naugler III. In any event, when someone is doing something that has cost me a friend or two, I try to point out to them what was the mode of demise of the jumpers in question. If I see someone doing something dangerous, I have no qualms about telling them - particularly if it threatens someone else who is not part of their game plan. I don't care if they are world champions, since I can list many world champions who were maimed or killed by similar actions; NONE of us are immune. I have been to too many funerals, and would prefer that they put off their ash dive until much later. Regarding camera, my first camera jump was in 1972 with a Instamatic Super-8 movie camera duct-taped to my helmet and a Konica 35mm stowed up my sleeve. I'm not the most experienced camera flier out there, but I pretty much know the people who are, and can pass on the recommendations they gave me. In this case I don't think it's the camera in particular that is the problem. It sounds like the kind of attitude problem that can be tough to survive in this sport - the wake-up call is often fatal. When someone responds to advice with thanks for looking out for their well-being, I think there is hope. If they try to explain that they had everything under control, I am concerned for their continued well-being. I have had people who took offense initially, but thanked me years later for taking the time to warn them. Sometimes it works, and that makes it worthwhile. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #24 April 13, 2004 Quote I've always been saying that jumers should not attempt freefly until they have a firm foundation in RW. I agree 100%.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 April 13, 2004 QuoteIs there something particularly bad with it being a camera on a Pro-Tec? Yes, it does not look nearly as cool...Therfore it can't be safe. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
