ChasingBlueSky 0 #26 April 13, 2004 Quote I've always been saying that jumers should not attempt freefly until they have a firm foundation in RW. Even as A coach I get laughed at.... Two of the best freeflyers that I know - Rook and Missy Nelson - both preach this._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #27 April 13, 2004 It's far better to be a dick and save a life, than shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, they're adults and it's their choice." While the freedom to choose is the freedom to choose unwisely, it does not mean that one has the right to choose poorly. When there are other folks in the sky with you that you may jeopardize or who will be emotionally impacted when they bounce, I choose being a dick. Course my nick is... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #28 April 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've heard that if you are an experienced jumper and say stuff, then people think you are being a dick. I have had people who took offense initially, but thanked me years later for taking the time to warn them. Sometimes it works, and that makes it worthwhile. Private joke. People who read some of my posts and Ron's posts with regularity will understand. Sometime we are regarded as safety-nazis and people get offended. Ron and I have accepted that we may step on a few toes. Trust me, I am not failing to offer my opinion for fear of rejection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #29 April 13, 2004 QuoteTwo of the best freeflyers that I know - Rook and Missy Nelson - both preach this. Yeah - and still we see people with 50 jumps that can do a stable sit or headdown but not fly relative with another person on their bellies....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 April 13, 2004 QuoteI have had people who took offense initially, but thanked me years later for taking the time to warn them. Sometimes it works, and that makes it worthwhile. Winsor...Well hell you gave me my first HP canopy class. And I get emails and PMs from folks that called me an ass a year ago are saying sorry...It's really funny. QuotePrivate joke. People who read some of my posts and Ron's posts with regularity will understand. Sometime we are regarded as safety-nazis and people get offended. Ron and I have accepted that we may step on a few toes. Accepted? Well after the initial tears of being called a bad name by the newbies that don't understand, I got over it... Now I kinda look forward to stepping on their toes...It's like my own little sick game."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #31 April 13, 2004 Ian, I was making no assumptions about how he flies...I was simply stating that perhaps there is more to what was going on than what was apparent. I also feel using jump numbers as a sole metric is insufficient. That said, if he's been warned or talked to about people being uncomfortable with what he's doing, have those people offered to coach him on those things they find fault with? Simply warning someone about something that you think might be wrong is insufficient (again I make no assumptions about who said what to the guy). I think those with more experience have a duty to mentor the newer folks when they can. If I see people blatantly screw up, I talk to them in a teacher/student manner rather than like a drill sergeant or parent, it seems more effective. I agree that there are just plain ol' knuckle-heads out there that probably won't understand without some pain involved, if they invade my space and make me feel unsafe I'd consider using 'alternative' forms of persuasion :> I do agree with the tunnel statement as well, it may teach you to fly well, but it doesn't necessarily teach you survival skills in the air. It's easy when everything goes right, but your real test is what you do when the shit hits the fan. My point was basically that there is often more to it than what people assume, and that in general, people should work with each other rather than being a Fascist Rule Nazi. I had no opinion on this guys situation as I don't know him, I was generally speaking. -Rory QuoteActually we're fully aware of how he flys, unlike yourself. He isn't ready, but blows us off....but then again, everyone thinks they are....right Kaerock? QuoteBasing it upon pure jump numbers is rather narrow and shouldn't be so cut and dry. I don't care how much tunnel time someone has, 50 jumps is still only 50 deployments. There's a lot more to jumping camera than getting the shot. QuoteGuys aren't nearly as sexy on roller skates. Well that's cause you've never seen me on rollerskates...although you did see the whole "sock thing"...sorry you had to be subjected to that!! Blue skies Ian You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #32 April 13, 2004 I have a rather thick skin when it comes to hurting people's feelings instead of letting them hurt or kill themselves. I have been the one elected to give someone "the talk," and let them know that they had best take up another hobby. This sport is not for everyone, and some people simply don't have the attributes that make it likely that they will develop survival skills by the time they need them. Better to need a band-aid at the bowling alley than a life-flight at the DZ. I have seen one too many people get hurt or killed where I had already thought they were a crater looking for a grid reference, and my goal in pointing out the error of their ways is not to be able to say "I told you so" later. The biggest problems I've seen are arrogance and denial. Like any aviation-based activity, the ideal balance is to have sufficient ego to take off and enough humility to routinely effect a safe landing. Skydivers, like pilots, have a tendency to mistake luck for ability. As a pilot and skydiver I'm no exception. Some years back Mike Mullins gave me hell for pushing my luck flying around weather systems, and I owe him for that. I trust Mike's judgment, and appreciate him showing enough concern for me to let me know that I'd already had my share of dumb luck. I had someone call me from across the country after witnessing a near-death-experience of mine that wound up on videotape, to the effect of "You ASSHOLE! Sure, you made that look intentional, but I know you FUCKED UP! If you bounce, I'll never forgive you!" I've had people look out for me, and my real friends have paid more attention to my safety than my feelings. Since I'm alive and in one piece as a result, I show my gratitude by trying to pass it on. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #33 April 13, 2004 Quote Yeah - and still we see people with 50 jumps that can do a stable sit or headdown but not fly relative with another person on their bellies.... Yeah, and we all know how important that is when you're on a ff dive. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #34 April 13, 2004 QuoteYeah, and we all know how important that is when you're on a ff dive. Actually the awareness you build is critical. Missy and Rook have substantial knowledge about FF and the most successful progression techniques....I wonder why people don't believe world champions? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #35 April 13, 2004 >Yeah, and we all know how important that is when you're on a ff dive. Keep in mind that there is more to a dive than the cool videos and head-downs. There is deployment, for example, and deploying your parachute successfully is an important part of surviving the dive. You you have to be able to fly on your belly, remain stable, hold a heading and not slide around (i.e. be able to do basic RW) to deploy with the best chance of getting a good canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #36 April 13, 2004 Quote>Yeah, and we all know how important that is when you're on a ff dive. Keep in mind that there is more to a dive than the cool videos and head-downs. There is deployment, for example, and deploying your parachute successfully is an important part of surviving the dive. You you have to be able to fly on your belly, remain stable, hold a heading and not slide around (i.e. be able to do basic RW) to deploy with the best chance of getting a good canopy. Definitely. But, does that really include flying with some heavyweight, or being able to go on a 12 way? I did a little bellyflying in the tunnel and I was suprised how well it went considering I hadn't done a belly dive since jump 20something. Now, I probably can't swoop a formation, but I think i'm good enough to deploy my parachute:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #37 April 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteYeah, and we all know how important that is when you're on a ff dive. Actually the awareness you build is critical. Missy and Rook have substantial knowledge about FF and the most successful progression techniques....I wonder why people don't believe world champions? Blue skies Ian So, you don't think that freeflying helps build good awareness? angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #38 April 13, 2004 >But, does that really include flying with some heavyweight, or being >able to go on a 12 way? No, you just need the skill to do basic 2-ways. And that skill IS important even when you're on a FF dive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #39 April 13, 2004 QuoteSo, you don't think that freeflying helps build good awareness? Nope, I think it builds the awareness as well. The reason I advocate learning flat flying (basic stuff, no-one expects airspeed here) is that I believe that because things happen slower on a RW dive that awareness can be built in a safer environment. That's kinda what I'm getting at. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #40 April 13, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah, and we all know how important that is when you're on a ff dive. Actually the awareness you build is critical. Missy and Rook have substantial knowledge about FF and the most successful progression techniques....I wonder why people don't believe world champions? Blue skies Ian So, you don't think that freeflying helps build good awareness? angela. belly flying is a part of a freeflying.... hence the word free fly. all axes. i think we are off topic though.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lug 4 #41 April 13, 2004 Choice is definitely an issue where many people place the right to choose high and this is why people won’t do anything about a fledgling skydiver flying with a camera helmet. This is just and observation, I am not saying I agree or disagree. Since someone brought up S&TA I feel I have to throw in my two cents. The S&TA is not a policeman he is an advisor remember the acronym S&TA stands for, Safety and Training Advisor. This means that the only thing an S&TA can do and should do is advise the jumper about the risks they are taking and recommend a safer path to their goal. The only one who can have a decisive influence on your situation is the DZO. The DZO can set policy at his DZ, requiring a minimum amount of jumps before someone begins flying with a camera helmet. This won’t win any popularity contest with the DZs population because people, in general, don’t like change and new rules. One other person I can think who should be saying something is the camera flyer for hire. They are the ones with the good and bad experiences and equipment knowledge.Memento Mori Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #42 April 13, 2004 QuoteThe only one who can have a decisive influence on your situation is the DZO. The DZO can set policy at his DZ, requiring a minimum amount of jumps before someone begins flying with a camera helmet. This won’t win any popularity contest with the DZs population because people, in general, don’t like change and new rules. And that's the person who needs to be "woken up", imho. Think someone is endangering you, your friends or themselves with their choices? Refuse to be on the same load with them. Ever. Think about it. At most dz's if 10 of the "regulars" refused to not just jump with someone but also refused to board an aircraft with them... the DZO will do something about it and it won't take long at all. You may not like what s/he does... but that will tell you how important safety issues are to that DZO. You can then make your decision on where to jump next weekend based on solid information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #43 April 14, 2004 Kel, I'm not sure who you are talking about but are you sure he only has 60 jumps??? Travis only has a B license and that only to satisfy the WFFC guidelines. He has over 700 jumps. Are you sure Wendel and Trey realize he is jumping a camera. Honestly Trey is flying and Wendel is working with students so unless someone points things out to him he may not have noticed. My suggestion is to point it out to Trey during the week so he can make those in position to talk to the child aware of the situation. Just my opinion. Lisa -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #44 April 14, 2004 Quotei think we are off topic though.. My bad. I didn't mean to start something else here...=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #45 April 14, 2004 Lisa, Ian said he has been spoken to already, but it had little or no impact. And yes, I'm quite certain he has fewer jumps than me. Maybe somewhere in the realm of 70 or so. But we'll just see what happens, since the issue has been addressed. Maybe he'll come to his senses. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #46 April 14, 2004 Just to be clear, Kele is referring to the jumper, not the DZO. I will mention the issue to the DZO - it's his business, and hence his decision to allow the jumper to continue or not on his current path.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #47 April 14, 2004 just as an aside... aren't there any restrictions in place on jumping a camera in the states? 200 jumps and C license are needed in the UK... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #48 April 14, 2004 I was just pointing out that the DZO Might not know what is happening. I mean we all know how the manager does things that the doesn't know about as we have seen it here before. Someone point it out to him at least. I would if I wasn't so clueless who it is. -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #49 April 14, 2004 Ok, I see what you're saying. When Ian had said that the issue had been addressed, I just assumed Trey knew about it. Guess I should eventually learn to never assume anything. I just don't want to piss anyone off . . . although happythoughts's idea of "Dick for a Day" sounds like a good idea to me. Just give me a couple hundred more jumps. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyjump12 0 #50 April 17, 2004 Hi Kelly and others, The answer is found in the Skydivers Information Manual (2004) section 6-8. Although a specific number of jumps is not given a "C" licence is the recommended minumum. Ability to hold a sit or head down does not replace experience and ability required to handle an emergency situation. Thanks LLGrowing old is inevitable, growing up is optional - SKYDIVE!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
