Re: [billvon] Fogged visor, hit power lines.

[billvon 2,990]

>You're right in that if I thought that going without my helmet was
> going to teach me something necessary that I probably would do
> it..yes. I just don't see it that way.

Fair enough. In this case it would have prevented someone from colliding with power lines, but I will readily admit that's an unusual incident.

>Lets look at altimeters....I think it's a good idea to be mentally
> prepared for what to do if you look at your altimeter and it's at
> 8K...and you look at your altimeter and it's at 8K 10 seconds
> later....what would you do? you shoudl already have an answer to
> that. However, I don't think it's necessary to have jumped without
> an altimeter in order to answer that question.

OK, here's the situation then. You're at Rantoul doing a solo something or other. Your altimeter fails. What do you do?

>You seem to think that it's necessary to do the deed almost as much
> for confidence as for the actual practice of performance...and I don't
> need that. I will practice as much as possible...but also be as safe
> as I can be.

You're right, I think it's for both. That guy who died when he relied on his cypres too much would be alive today if he had tried to make a jump without one. From what his friends said, he would _never_ have jumped without a cypres, and as it turned out had a deadly reliance on his. Finding that out before his death might have prevented it.

I think gear dependency is getting to be more and more of a serious issue. More and more skydivers are not only using AAD's, audibles, full face helmets etc 100% of the time but are not even considering how to skydive without them. I am convinced that if you took a planeload of typical skydivers, got to 5000 feet, waited until they were all relaxed and then said "Engine fire! Everyone out NOW!" half the people would spend ten seconds fussing with their helmets, gloves etc because they have simply never considered jumping without them. Intentionally remaining in a burning plane because they want the "protection" of their helmets? Not taking your helmet off when you can't see? That's an indication that there's a pretty serious dependency, IMO.

Older jumpers don't seem to have this issue. When we had the "big freeze" on the 300-way in Arizona, helmets and goggles went flying almost instantly. We then had a few dozen people approaching the biggest formation in the world without eye protection, but because they had done it before they knew what to expect and we had no serious problems.

So what's the solution? I think that doing one jump without a helmet (or with a tiny helmet, or taking it off in freefall/under canopy or whatever) does a few things for you:

-it lets you see what the wind in your face/eyes feels like
-it allows you to practice exiting without a helmet, which feels odd
-it allows you to practice landing without a helmet
-it plants the seed in your head "it's possible to exit without a helmet if the plane is on fire"
-it also plants the seed that you don't need your helmet to land safely, and thus the helmet becomes very optional if you can't see through the lens.

Are there other ways of accomplishing all that? Probably. Jumping without a helmet is an easy way to do it. Does that mean people _should_ do it? That's up to them. I think it's worthwhile, but there are many ways to achieve the same result (reduction of gear dependency.)

[billvon 2,990]

>I'm curious, do you include clothes and/or corrective lenses
>in "without anything"? (seriously)

Clothes - not really. If you jump in shorts and a T-shirt the sensation is very similar to jumping nude, and is also similar to the sensation of blowing out a jumpsuit seam. (And the odds of anyone ending up accidentally nude are pretty low.)

Corrective lenses - good question. Yes and no. If you need glasses to see well but can sort of see without them, then yes - again on a perfect day with good winds, soft ground and a warning to the rest of the load. If you can't see without them, then the risk of doing it outweighs the potential reward.

>Kapowsin has a waiver to put out S/L students without one.

A few other DZ's have done the same.

[Ron 10]

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Ah yes! Now preparing for emergencies (like your mask coming off) I can see! but you don't "practice" your mask coming off and staying calm while you're 75' under water...you do it in a swimming pool. You don't intentionally increase your risk...you practice in a manner that is safer...

Uh in my SCUBA class we practiced in the pool then at 30 feet in a lake then at 60 feet in open water.

That way people got used to the fact that without a mask they will not drown even in 60 feet of ocean.

We also did everything but "ditch and don" in open water.

Does that make me feel better prepared for my mask comming off in open water at 60 feet than they person that only did it at 6 feet in a pool...Yes.

Just like a person who has jumped without a helmet will be better prepared for a situation that requires them to take it off than a person who has never jumped without one.

Edit to add....

In my Cave course the instructor would fake a panic and rip your regulator out of your mouth...Think about it. If a buddy runs out of air is he going to calmly swim over and give you the hand signal for out of air? Or is he going to take grab the only source of air he knows...Yours?

Trust me I have seen this happen and the guy didn't grab for my octo...He took the reg right out of my mouth.

Train for the worst in the most realistic situation available...Thats why when I am acting like I have a mal on my handles check, if you listen real close you can hear me say "shit".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[elfanie 0]

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OK, here's the situation then. You're at Rantoul doing a solo something or other. Your altimeter fails. What do you do?

How does it fail? What I mean is...is it measuring noticably off on the way up to altitude? Am I in freefall and, as the example I gave, I'm at 8K...then 10 seconds later I'm still at 8K? Is it reading right but as I do my first check after leaving the aircraft it's off or showing something wildly wrong?

If I left the airplane and noticed it right out the door...I'd do nothing but count approximately 45 seconds while watching visual cues and then wave off and pull.

If it was reading what felt as accurate down to 8K...then stayed at 8K when I looked another 10 seconds later...I'd probably pull relatively soon while watching the visual cues.

If it was reading 8K but my audible in my helmet went off...screw it, I'm pulling. I'd rather err on too high than too low.

Now...right or wrong, those are my answers...and before anyone tells me I'm a blithering idiot (if that's what they think) about any of my answers..please don't. Just take this as an educating opportunity rather than one to smack someone down unnecessarily hard.

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You're right, I think it's for both. That guy who died when he relied on his cypres too much would be alive today if he had tried to make a jump without one. From what his friends said, he would _never_ have jumped without a cypres, and as it turned out had a deadly reliance on his. Finding that out before his death might have prevented it.

He might have jumped without one...but still relied on it the way that he did. The problem wasn't that he wouldn't jump without one (I wouldn't, either)...the problem was that he relied on it whereas I do not even think about it after it's turned on. Truthfully....do not even give it a thought...it's like it isn't there.

It's not what they (the person with the helmet and the person with the cypress) have DONE that's the problem...
the problem is what they have THOUGHT! People think stupid crap sometimes...
don't want to cutaway because of what others will think, because of the money for the repack, because it's borrowed gear, because of any number of stupid reasons.
The cypres guy's problem wasn't jumping with or without a cypres...but the fact that he depended on something else to save him rather than doing it himself. The guy with the helmet...because he hadn't mentally evaluated what he should do in that situation before he got into it...is it better to fly blind but with helmet? or better to fly without a helmet but see...

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I think gear dependency is getting to be more and more of a serious issue. More and more skydivers are not only using AAD's, audibles, full face helmets etc 100% of the time but are not even considering how to skydive without them. I am convinced that if you took a planeload of typical skydivers, got to 5000 feet, waited until they were all relaxed and then said "Engine fire! Everyone out NOW!" half the people would spend ten seconds fussing with their helmets, gloves etc because they have simply never considered jumping without them. Intentionally remaining in a burning plane because they want the "protection" of their helmets?

I agree with you here.

I do.

I wonder, though...how much of that is because of gear dependence...and how much of it is from habit. We practice EP's for habit and muscle memory. I think many of them are so used to doing certain things before leaving the plane and therefore would try to do those things...(which is why the 2-try rule for malfunctions is a good idea! It's easy to think you have more time than you do!)

you very well may be right...that it's gear dependence...
I'm just tossing the question out there..

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Not taking your helmet off when you can't see? That's an indication that there's a pretty serious dependency, IMO.

Or someone who just didn't think about that situation before getting into it and made a poor decision....

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So what's the solution? I think that doing one jump without a helmet (or with a tiny helmet, or taking it off in freefall/under canopy or whatever) does a few things for you:

-it lets you see what the wind in your face/eyes feels like

For someone like me...that would be especially difficult since I wear contacts. I wouldn't be able to see. But yes...I've gone over that scenario in my head and know that I could land if I lost my goggles...(I would just lose my contacts as well). I can see...it would just be...probably a PLF.

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-it allows you to practice exiting without a helmet, which feels odd
-it allows you to practice landing without a helmet
-it plants the seed in your head "it's possible to exit without a helmet if the plane is on fire"

and I would like to see things like this addressed specifically with students....
I'd like to have them told specifically if there's a problem and they are told to get out, not just to get out...but what NOT to do, as in not to do a poised exit, not to fiddle with helmets and goggles, etc.

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Are there other ways of accomplishing all that? Probably. Jumping without a helmet is an easy way to do it. Does that mean people _should_ do it? That's up to them. I think it's worthwhile, but there are many ways to achieve the same result (reduction of gear dependency.)

*nods*
I see your point...

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think that Bill means...it is an important thing to prove to YOURSELF. It is like when you learn to scuba dive, and they take off your mask. It is to make sure that if your mask somehow comes off during the dive, you will react well and stay calm. You are preparing/training yourself to react well under unforeseen problems.

Mask issues aren't unforseen problems.

mask flooding is a multiple time per dive occurence. Having a mask dislodged
happens frequently if you giant stride or back roll off boats. Having it kicked off the face is relatively rare, but not unheard of. But the solition to all of them is the same, so it's not quite in the same league as a lost helmet or a disfunctional Cypres. How often should that happen? 1 in 100, 500?

It's the same story as before - the question of over reliance on gear versus taking the safety margin that gear improvements give you. I'd love to do a helmet free jump when suitable - but for the same reasons that I'd like CA not to have a lid law for bikers. It feels nice, if not as safe. But I haven't proven anything by willingness to jump with one or without.

If someone jumps without any sort of safety gear, have they shown that they aren't reliant on the gear, or that they don't have a great regard for their own safety? (hint- it's a rhetorical question for individual thought. If you think it has a correct answer you missed it)

----
All that aside, it's not that hard to adjust/see without goggles? I keep my visor closed on the bike at even mild freeway speeds. Is there any suspended dust up high?

[billvon 2,990]

>If I left the airplane and noticed it right out the door...I'd do nothing
> but count approximately 45 seconds while watching visual cues and
> then wave off and pull.

Not a bad plan, although had you exited at 13.5 you'd be open at the busiest DZ on the planet at 6000 feet. A jumper who had learned to judge altitude without an altimeter would be able to get closer to a safer opening altitude.

>He might have jumped without one...but still relied on it the way that
> he did. The problem wasn't that he wouldn't jump without one (I
> wouldn't, either)...the problem was that he relied on it whereas I do
> not even think about it after it's turned on. Truthfully....do not even
> give it a thought...it's like it isn't there.

Wendy Faulkner thought the same way about her dytter. She never even gave it a thought; it was just a backup for her visual altimeter. But when she stopped using it she noticed her skydiving habits changed. That's the insidious part about becoming reliant on something - you don't notice that you are doing it since everything goes just fine even if you _are_ relying on it.

>I wonder, though...how much of that is because of gear
>dependence...and how much of it is from habit.

Both, I think - and there is value in occasionally breaking that habit.

>and I would like to see things like this addressed specifically with
>students....

I honestly don't think you can do that. I've taught five hour FJC classes and I've taught eight hour ones over the course of two days. And after a point people simply can't absorb any more. Not because they're unable to learn, but because they have no reference points. It's like trying to teach someone how to do a block 4-way move who has never skydived before - they can parrot the information back but saying "fly off your opposite" means little to a whuffo who has never flown before.

Hence the need for continuing education. Whenever I do water training I try to cram about an hour of advanced stuff into the course - canopy selection, aircraft issues, known gear problems, RW safety, boogie safety etc. Most of those topics would go right over the heads of most FJC students.

Take the bailout issue. Most FJC students think the idea of getting "complacent" in the plane is absurd. They're scared to death; of course they're not going to get complacent, and of course they're going to bail out instantly without a helmet if told to do so!

But talk to someone who has 200 jumps, and has actually fallen asleep in the plane once? Chances are he will understand your point better.

The other reason I think that some of this stuff is better learned after you graduate is that, frankly, some of this stuff is dangerous. It's more dangerous to land with rear risers than with toggles (although if you pick your day carefully it's not too dangerous.) And that means that people should decide for themselves whether they want to do it. Is being well-prepared for a rear riser landing worth the increase in risk required to actually do one? That's a question that experienced jumpers can answer, but students can't.

[Ron 10]

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You should have the answer to "what would you do if your goggles/helmet fogged up and you couldn't see..."
I just don't think you have to jump without your goggles/helmet in order to find that answer out...or to proceed with that answer should your goggles/helmet fog.

The problem is (such as in this case) that the person felt safer with the helmet on even though he could not see....He felt that way cause he was told helmets are good. And he had never jumped without one, so he never knew he would be just fine without it.

You can't expect someone to do something they have never done before when in a high stress situation.

Thats why jumping without a helmet/aad/rsl/gloves/altimeter, ect in a set of good conditions can teach loads about what you cana nd can't do.

If you have never jumped without an altimeter you might pull as soon as you see it is broken...And that could mean pulling dangerously high. Or it could casue you to just stare at it, instead of seeing all the other clues to your hight.

Train in the most realistic way you can. And that means when you can try to simulate the extreme event so that if it happens it is atleast SOMEWHAT familiar.

Jumping without a helmet but goggles will prepare you for the very loud skydive...That might scare the shit out of you otherwise.

In a high stress situation the guy with the best simulated training will be better prepared than the guy that just thought about it.

Thats why when I was in the Army they shot real bullets over my head, and threw real exposives around us....Not just loud sounds but real exposions.

Simulate in the best conditions possible the worst situations you can safely do...And you will be safer.

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I can see your point..I just think I disagree with taking risk for learning that I don't see as necessary as you do. You seem to think that it's necessary to do the deed almost as much for confidence as for the actual practice of performance...and I don't need that. I will practice as much as possible...but also be as safe as I can be.

And he and I have been around this sport a long time...And we are both Instructors....You think we might know more and better ways to train than a new skydiver?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jimbo 0]

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I have jumped without a Cypres before but I would not do it again unless something safer came out on the market.

What are you going to do when the Cypres is due for its four year checkup?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Tonto 1]

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Think carefully about what Bill is saying in his posts. He knows what he is talking about.

Word.

All accidents are at the end of an events cascade. By learning to deal with small things one at a time, by ommission, as you did, or deliberatly, as Billvon suggests, is the best way to break the chain of events that contribute to accidents.

To others....

Look for the links in the chain. Last load. Getting dark. Tinted goggles or visor. A hold or slow climb to altitude...

Your next desision could save you or kill you.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I would take my non-flipable visor helmet off if it gets foggy after I checked canopy and traffic, before unstowing breaks. I dont have to drop it, just bind against chest trap.

[Ron 10]

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I dont have to drop it, just bind against chest trap.

Try that. Its not easy or maybe even possible.

It would be better to just prop it on your head.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

yeah. Or clean and put it back

[Laurel 0]

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I have jumped without a Cypres before but I would not do it again unless something safer came out on the market.

What are you going to do when the Cypres is due for its four year checkup?
Jim

Jump with another Cypres while mine is being serviced.

.....................................................................
PMS#28, Pelogrande Rodriguez#1074
My Pink M

[Ron 10]

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yeah. Or clean and put it back

clean it with?

And like I have said before...Unless you have done this before, I don't expect you to be able to under duress.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[elfanie 0]

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>If I left the airplane and noticed it right out the door...I'd do nothing
> but count approximately 45 seconds while watching visual cues and
> then wave off and pull.

Not a bad plan, although had you exited at 13.5 you'd be open at the busiest DZ on the planet at 6000 feet. A jumper who had learned to judge altitude without an altimeter would be able to get closer to a safer opening altitude.

Ah...but the DZ that I jump at is not busy...and therefore pulling at 6K usually isn't a problem there...
took me a long time to wean myself down to 4.5K. heh. And I've NEVER pulled lower than 4K. so the "count to 45 seconds" thing was specifically for the DZ that I jump at..knowing that higher isn't going to be a problem there...

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Wendy Faulkner thought the same way about her dytter. She never even gave it a thought; it was just a backup for her visual altimeter. But when she stopped using it she noticed her skydiving habits changed.

That's one of the reasons I do not set my audible for breakoff altitude...which is what most people told me that I should set it at. I set my audible for a point in my skydive in which I should already be under canopy....and a point in which, if I'm NOT under canopy, I pull NOW...and know that if my canopy is having a problem that I have only a moment to consider whether to chop it or not. (I usually set my audible to 2500-3K)

Because I do not want to be thinking about my audible...and I don't. When it goes off...it's more of an "Oh yeah....forgot about that" type of a thing rather than thinking, "when is my audible going to go off..?"

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>and I would like to see things like this addressed specifically with
>students....

I honestly don't think you can do that. I've taught five hour FJC classes and I've taught eight hour ones over the course of two days.

Oh no...I don't mean in an AFF course..
I consider jumpers students until they are licensed....I meant it should be addressed during the course of them becoming licensed...

I'm all for continuing education.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[phoenixlpr 0]

One personal question: how many smilies should I put that you get it as a joke????

I was not serious with cleaning it airborne.

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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Word.

All accidents are at the end of an events cascade. By learning to deal with small things one at a time, by ommission, as you did, or deliberatly, as Billvon suggests, is the best way to break the chain of events that contribute to accidents.

I agree.

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To others....

Look for the links in the chain. Last load. Getting dark. Tinted goggles or visor. A hold or slow climb to altitude...

Your next desision could save you or kill you.

Btw, I forgot about that one, but I looked back at my log book and found that on my 29th jump I had a similar situation. I finished a sunset 2-way and pulled. At the time, I was still pulling high. When I was under canopy after freefall, I immediately took off my amber-tinted goggles because it was beginning to get dark. My eyer watered, but I was able to see better when I landed. Problem solved.

Would I go into freefall without eye protection? Good question...it made me think. Goggles and a rig w/ 2 parachutes are the only two things that I have never been in freefall without. I guess that I could try to fly without goggles/eye protection on a solo to see what it feels like.

Btw, I have a full-face, but I only fly with it in the tunnel. It is Factory Diver, so it does not flip up. Besides loving the feel of the wind on my face, I have a silly fear of having a fogged visor on a skydive with my full-face...so I never use it in freefall. I guess that I could begin to use it after jumping without eye protection on a jump because then I would know that I could fly with or without the helmet/eye protection.

[Deuce 1]

What a great discussion.

Not necessarily directed at you, Laurel, but anybody who can't jump without a helmet should never, ever put a camera helmet on. Every item save the rig should be immediately dispensed with when it jeapordizes the safe conclusion of a jump. Goggles, helmet, gloves, shoes, jumpsuits, all of it. When any of that stuff gets caught, tangled or broken, it should be cast aside as quickly as possible to insure the safe conclusion of the jump.

This subject just kinda jumped out at me, cause just about every time I pitch, I am ready to ditch my camera helmet.

[Squeak 17]

On the topic of Goggles, I jump with prescription goggles, and I always wear a helemt, mostly to ensure the goggles don't come off.
If however I need to ditch the helmet, then so be it.
Also if the goggles do come off, I have leg pockets on ALL my jump cloths, in this pocket I carry my glasses.
I NEVER want to be in a situatiuon where I have to land my canopy without eyewear. My distance perception is shot to hell without correction.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[spottydog 0]

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On the topic of Goggles, I jump with prescription goggles, and I always wear a helemt, mostly to ensure the goggles don't come off.
If however I need to ditch the helmet, then so be it.
Also if the goggles do come off, I have leg pockets on ALL my jump cloths, in this pocket I carry my glasses.
I NEVER want to be in a situatiuon where I have to land my canopy without eyewear. My distance perception is shot to hell without correction.

Nice plan. Preparation is definitely the key to survival.