Should instructors swoop?

[Darminion 0]

ok, I want to clarify one thing. This is not in regards to me. Not I am not on radio anymore. My canopy skills were good enough from the start that I actually told him to stop talking to me unless I was doing something really stupid cause he was screwing me up. The question at hand here is whether or not an instructor should put his personal enjoyment in front of the students safety when there is a designated swooping area which is the only place where they want people to swoop and it's too far from the student area to give accurate canopy control and landing advice.

Anvile Brother #59

[FrogNog 1]

Materially jeopardizing student safety is wrong for anyone to do.

The thing I can't comment on is whether the instructor in the situation you describe is close enough to tell the student when to flare. Our field is totally flat, and the instructor on the radio always (that I have seen) starts out on the ground. They can basically see well enough to the extents of the huge field to call "flare" at about the right time. They told me in my FJC that if I'm landing outside the field, I'm on my own (and I believe if I land outside the field on my first jump, they said to land in half brakes with no flare, which I did when I landed in the field but somehow managed to turn off my radio in flight. ).

Edited blue text to clarify.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[skybytch 273]

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Whether the freefall instructor or another staff member issues radio instructions is a minor point, subject to local DZ policy.

I'd like to see a capable instructor who is not on the load handle radio for students in the air. imho this instructor should be in the student landing area from the time the plane is on jump run until every student on that load has landed. That's how it was handled where/when I learned to jump; after seeing how it's handled other places I still think that's the ideal.

I emphasized "capable" because, although I had an S/L Instructor rating, when I was working with students I totally sucked at talking them down on the radio. "Remote controlling" skydivers ain't easy; just because someone has an AFF or any other rating does not mean they are going to be any good at talking students down.

[masher 1]

For students at my DZ, we have a radio plus an arrow on the ground. We also don't have more than one student in the air at one time.

If the radio fails, then the arrow is the backup.

If everything is totally screwed, and the student is waaaaay out in the boonies, then they are taught to land in half brakes, and PLR.

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[Kris 0]

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I emphasized "capable" because, although I had an S/L Instructor rating, when I was working with students I totally sucked at talking them down on the radio. "Remote controlling" skydivers ain't easy; just because someone has an AFF or any other rating does not mean they are going to be any good at talking students down.

Well said. I think I do very well in all aspects of working with my IAD students, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm the last guy you want on the radio talking them down.

I can fly my own pattern and landing just fine, I'm just lousy at doing so for others.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[DanglesOZQld 0]

This is just my own personal opinion and nothing else........When I am doing an AFF jump I treat the whole thing in the form that the student has paid for the jump from Brief to debrief and I usually land into wind and watch the whole thing even though we have as a rule someone else guiding the guys and girls in via radio. You can have fun every now and then but you are there for the students if they are paying for your jump as far as I am concerned. Keep in mind also that it is a lot easier being in the air (or under a canopy) to bring someone in rather than
on the ground with a radio trying to direct them in.
Not to mention the reaction time required or winds on the day affecting the flare height of the student/s under canopy being TA controlled.
Hence the need for a large obstable free student landing area and good training to avoid problems wherever possible......... BSBD -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[riddler 0]

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but when I first started I was told that I HAD to do as I was told over the radio, even to the extent that there was a procedure for signaling an out radio if you didn't get some instruction by 1500ft

I wouldn't agree with this. We teach FJC and make a point to tell students that they can ignore the radio instructions if they don't feel comfortable with them - every canopy pilot is in control of their own canopy and has to make their own choices. We suggest that if the student doesn't see the harm of following the instructions, then they might do well to follow them, and most of them do.

We allow the student to choose because of the problem you mentioned. Instructors can't always see that ditch or fence that the student is about to land on. I've even seen one instructor try to signal students to land downwind (fortunately, the student ignored the instructor). Instructors can sometimes make mistakes and they don't have the same information as the student. We also have the instructors precede radio command with the name of the student because one instructor advised a student with a bad canopy to cut away, and all three students in the air then cutaway. Even that doesn't always work - instructors often call the wrong name of the student.

The point is that you are the one that will have to live with a broken leg, so you are the one that should be making the decision.

All that being said, I remember one time teaching FJC. We have a separate landing area for swoopers. I had already spent four hours with the students telling them about how dangerous it is to land fast, and how they should avoid the high-performance landing area below 1,000 feet. I had them outside to show them the landing area, when all of a sudden, the S&TA comes swooping the peas, 20 feet away from the students. This was the same S&TA that made it a rule that swoopers have to land in the alternate area. The students' reaction? "That was neat!"

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[djmarvin 2]

As an instructor I agree with you. Where you are v. the students landing area makes a difference on assisting a student on landing. For that reason if I do have to talk a student down on radio I either land in the same area the student will or very close to it so I can immediately be within that area to talk down my student. (by the way, I rarely have to do this since our DZ has a person talking students down, but we do on occasion have to do it ourselves or take our turns talking the students down)

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[Flare 0]

At our dropzone we don't get a radio on our first jump(Sl anyway, not sure about AFF).
You have to do your own flying pattern, all we get(when you're going to land on the field) is a so called "Batman" who gives you your final approach signals(250 ft and below) like steer a little left or steer a little right and Flare(with Beachballbats) The Bat in his/her left hand is your right hand so you just have to mimic his/her movements

guess what..didn't need her my first jump..landed out(some wheat-field) but the idea is good.
With radio I can imagine some mix-ups in how far to pull the toggle(s) down, that won't be a problem with the batman.

[dropzonefool 0]

I agree with the idea of a "batman" method... less mix-ups and confusion. (I really never, like most students, got clear reception on the radios I used... while in training.) Also, I think instructors should land in the student area, if there is no one already designated to "talk the students down." Stay with your student!
bsbd,
sims