Newbie, trying to get my head into the right place.

[Eule 0]

Hello all!

I started going through AFF on 11 June, have been jumping every weekend since (the DZ I go to is only
open on weekends), and have 13 jumps total now. Unfortunately, after a brief fling at AFF 4, I am still
at AFF 3. After the first few jumps I figured it was going to take me more than 7 jumps to get through
AFF, but I didn't think it'd take _this_ many. I am posting to see if anyone has any ideas on how I can
get my head in the right spot to proceed.

My initial problem was apparently a common one: I didn't have a good arch. At first it wasn't that I was
forgetting to arch - it was just that I wasn't flexible enough. I kept up with practice arching and
stretching exercises (from the forums here) and this past weekend, my arch (at least on the ground)
was pronounced 'much better' by my instructors. I still have trouble holding it for the entire freefall,
but when I do have it, I feel much more stable in the air. I think I will be able to solve this with more
stretching and exercise.

My second problem is probably looking down at the rip cord at pull time. On my 7th dive (AFF4), the
instructor released me and I was facing him for a few seconds, then I started an unintentonal turn. I
went through 720 and kept turning - I was still belly-to-earth, but I didn't like being in the turn and
decided to pull. When I went to pull, I looked down, and possibly didn't get my left hand up, with the
net effect that I flipped over on my butt (without pulling). My next thought was "pull anyway", then
"no, I'm upside down, give it about two seconds of trying to get face down again, THEN pull anyway".
I got flipped back over just before I pulled, but I later found it wasn't because I arched, but because
I looked down again when I went to pull. It bothered me some that what I thought I did to fix it,
and what actually fixed it, were two different things. On my next dive, I looked down again at pull
time and my instructor grabbed me to keep me from rolling over. I pulled without flipping, but only
because he was hanging on.

After all this I got a little paranoid, I guess, about becoming unstable. On the next dive, I fell really
nice and straight - no turns, no wobbles - until I went to do a practice touch, when I got a little
wobbly. Hey, I know how to fix "wobbly" - yank! At about 7.5K. Surprised the hell out of my
instructors. :) On the next two dives, I got really focused on being flat/straight, to the exclusion
of doing the practice touches - when I started to move my hands to do one, I would feel the air
pressure be a little different left and right, and then put my hands right back into the arch position
instead of completing the touch.

Up to this point, I had been working with the same instructor(s) every time. They asked another
(more experienced?) AFF instructor to go on a jump with me, presumably so he could see what a
problem child I am. :) I did two jumps with him. On the first one I left out the touch again. On
the second one I did the touch, but my pull sequence was a little off: I saw 5K, waved off (at least
I thought I did; instructors said they didn't see it), then went back to arch for a second in an attempt
to not look down, then reached down and pulled. I had a ripcord in my hand, but when I got on the
ground my left-side instructor told me that he had opened the container at 4K at about the same time
I pulled.

We had long debriefs after these last two dives. So far, I have been trying to remember every little
thing about the skydive, for a couple of reasons: one, I figure it shows to my instructors that I am
paying attention, and two, I have been writing up notes for myself on how each dive went that are
much more extensive than what goes in my log book. (On average, the notes for each dive would
run to two printed pages.) After these last two dives, one of my instructors commented that I was
telling them a lot of detail about things that weren't too important (like when my instructors
undocked or docked on me) and not much detail about the important parts (COA, practice touch,
pull), and thought that maybe I was having trouble trying to remember everything AND do the things
I need to do. For my last dive, I purposely didn't do a long write-up, just a few sentences worth of
notes. Both of my instructors said that I was challenging them - not in a bad way, just that they
both wanted to be able to help me do better but weren't quite sure of the best way to do that. We
agreed to all think about it this week and get back together next weekend.

Like I mentioned above, I'm posting here to see if there's a 'common n00b mistake' that I may be
making. I have the feeling that my problem isn't so much physical (body position or movements),
but mental - approaching things the right way in my mind. I also know that probably none of you
have actually seen me skydive, and asking for help here is a little like writing a letter to your doctor
asking why your throat hurts. I will keep working with my instructors and doing what they advise,
and if I think I figure out my problem, I will talk with them about my discovery _before_ we go out
the door. But I would appreciate any ideas from y'all.

Thanks!

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[Orange1 0]

I can sympathise with the mental thing - I'm at a block at the moment as well (so will be watching replies with interest)

re ripcord pulls - do you wear a wrist-mount alti? I found the easiest way to keep my arch & head up at pull time as well as bring my left hand forward properly was to train myself to look at the alti as i was pulling - you may want to try that.

are you getting video'd on your AFF? It doesn't sound like it - if you have that option I would strongly suggest it - it makes a big difference from being told what you did, to actually seeing it.

And good luck - you sound like you really want to do this, which means you will succeed

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Tonto 1]

So what about fear of the door? If you're a new skydiver, that should be high on your list!

Seriously, I think you're trying too hard.

If you look at the AFF program of 7 levels, even if you're jumping from 14000ft, all 7 dives give you less than 10 minites of freefall.

What does this mean? Skydiving is easy. It's you head that makes it hard. What can you learn in 10 min? Typing? Cooking? Horseback riding? Rock climbing? Are you getting this? It is easy.... BUT... learning anything new is hard, especially when the environment is as alien as it is in freefall.

What you should work on.

1. Listen to your instructor. During the dive, they're there to help. They can't help if you're not looking at them. 90% of my problem students have been the ones that don't look at me.

2. Do the stuff you know you must do. "Look" for the deployment device with your hand, not your eyes. Keep track of altitude. Maintain your body position. Know your dive sequence. Most of these issues can be resolved on the ground, and ground time is free.

3. The "Arch" comes more from relaxing the abdominal and pectoral muscles than it does from tensing the muscles in your back. If your instructors have ever asked you to "relax" how could you possibly do that with every muscle in your body quivering in tension?

4. Don't think so much. Just do. The "why?" questioning is best left for the debrief.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[hookncrater 0]

Seriously bro, you are way overanalyzing your jumps.

I'm not an instructor, but you need to take some deep breaths and relax.

Oh yeah, get video... it takes most of the guess-work out of the debrief.

My $0.02

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[riggerrob 643]

2. Do the stuff you know you must do. "Look" for the deployment device with your hand, not your eyes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Forget about using your eyes to find the ripcord.
You are just developing a habit that is slowing your learning and will be useless when you get off student gear. Main deployment handles are invisible on harnesses worn by experienced jumpers. The vast majority of them jump BOC or pull-outs, where the handle is on the lower right hand corner of the main container, where you can't see it without a mirror and a map!

[NWFlyer 2]

As a recent "problem child" who thought I would never ever get through my student progression (it eventually took me 37 jumps, a switch from static line to AFF, and lots of very patient instructors), I can sympathize.

I think you have to "analyze" as much as it makes sense for you. But sometimes analyzing can get in the way of relaxing and just feeling the skydive. Visualizing worked really well for me but remember, I'm a relative newcomer, not an instructor, and most importantly, not one of YOUR instructors, who should be your primary source of info....

For me, going through the dive flow 10-20 times in my head before it took place made it much easier to get through in the air. Visualize yourself in the plane, doing your gear checks, getting in the door, making a great exit, going through each of the steps in the dive flow, through a good stable pull. Visualize it a bunch of times until it becomes second nature. Visualize it on the ground. Sit in a quiet corner with your eyes closed and see it in your head. Do it again on the ride to altitude, as many times as you can. And since you've said that you have focused in on things your instructors don't deem important, visualize the things in the dive flow that they say are the most important for that dive.

I still visualize today and find that when I do I tend to have more successful skydives.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Jeth 0]

Hi there,
I'm just a rookie myself, so I can't really offer advice. But I just wanted to let you know I totally sympathize with you. And from my meager experience, I would agree with the people saying you are WAY over-analyzing everything. For me, I made 200% improvement in everything -- body position, awareness, remembering dive sequence -- when I just relaxed. I know its sounds too simple, but it really was that way for me.
I never had a problem finding my hackey (we never used a ripcord, always BOC), but definitely forget about looking for it cuz you can't see the BOC on a sport rig! Its all just muscle memory. From day one I touched my handles a ton of times. I still do that every time I jump. On the ground, in the plane, just keep touching it without looking. Eventually your hand will remember where to go.

Let me also throw this out there. My instructor had a big thing with getting your other hand out in front of your head at pull time. This was so you didn't drop it down and end up flipping over. I'm surprised you haven't been told this by your instructors, cuz it definitely does help. (Ask them about it so they can show you.)

It definitely sounds like you are committed so I wish you the best of luck. I'm sure you and your instructors will get it all figured out eventually.

"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters."
PFRX!!!!!
Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109
My Jump Site

[Avion 0]

I got two words for this: Tunnel Time

I see your in Tulsa, the closest tunnel to you I think is in Eloy, it should be open soon (Yea, right they been saying that for a year now ) I did time in a tunnel before AFF just eliminate problems like your experiencing, instability and unfamiliarity. Get to a tunel if you can, and get in there with a dummy rig if you can. 20 minutes should do you fine.

Visualization is great. Just like below, I find it very helpful, necessary actually, to plan/visualize the whole dive, from exit to landing repeatedly before jumping. The least benifit of this is to give myself a yard stick to match my actual performance against.

In your case, you might find it helpful to spend some time visualizing your dive flow and also the proper responses your instructors have given you to handle problems such as wobbling, turning, or flipping over. See yourself in the air, see a problem arises, see yourself handle the problem and continue the dive. Visualize this repeated until the whole thing flows by itself without effort just like a movie. Then do it!

Cheers

Quote

For me, going through the dive flow 10-20 times in my head before it took place made it much easier to get through in the air. Visualize yourself in the plane, doing your gear checks, getting in the door, making a great exit, going through each of the steps in the dive flow, through a good stable pull. Visualize it a bunch of times until it becomes second nature. Visualize it on the ground. Sit in a quiet corner with your eyes closed and see it in your head. Do it again on the ride to altitude, as many times as you can. And since you've said that you have focused in on things your instructors don't deem important, visualize the things in the dive flow that they say are the most important for that dive.

I still visualize today and find that when I do I tend to have more successful skydives.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

when I just relaxed. I know its sounds too simple, but it really was that way for me. I laugh now when I think about how I was concentrating so hard on every exact movement. I was just way too tense.

I still am! At least when my limits are pushed a bit too much, or when I have performance anxiety (instructor jumping with me)...

I found I am the most relaxed when the goals are kept really simple, like adding one new objective to a previously successful jump that I wasn't as tense during.

I am only just now learning it is okay to ask for a repeat jump of an earlier objective, or set my own RW learning objectives for the coaches who want to jump with me, even when an instructor wants you to progress to a more complicated jump (RW-wise). Refusing to do a jump that I feel I am not ready for, in favour of jumping a jump with simpler objectives to build skill rather than deal with sensory overload. This will help me in the longer run and relax a hell lot more. (Jumping with different people for RW pratice, understandably people tend to not keep track of what I've learned so far through other people, and what areas I actually need work with...)

I know this probably won't really apply to AFF type jumps since for people starting out, the instructor is the best way to determine your progression.

My instructor is right when the word "relax" is the hardest thing to learn during skydiving.

My most relaxing skydives are generally my solos. Sunset solo. "(mentally thinking to myself) Hey, that's Kinston city. (altcheck, turn,) Ottawa's thataway. (altcheck, turn) There's the Thousand islands and the river. (altcheck, turn) Oh. Beautiful sunset. (altcheck, time to do simulated breakoff, track) Nice ground rush. (altcheck, arch, stabilize) Pull time." ....

I did find balance is needed between solos and jumping with others. I can't have way too many solos. It did contribute in some ways to developing a bad arch. I had a bunch of bad RW jumps where I was trying to fix too many things at once, especially while tense. My canopy skill is definitely progressing much better than my RW skills.

[Darshiva8 0]

I know a guy at my home DZ having similar problems. I agree with the others. Visualize the dive flow many times before the jump. Relax and don't worry too much. If you don't get through everything on this jump, there is always another jump. Oh, and breathe. Breathing is good.

**************
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.
~Leonardo da Vinci~

[Eule 0]

Thanks for the replies!

Hopefully this won't be too confusing: I am going to attempt to reply to several people at
once, instead of creating several follow-up posts. Here goes...

Orange1> do you wear a wrist-mount alti?

Yes. Looking at it while I pull does sound like a good way to keep looking forward when
I pull.

Orange1> are you getting video'd on your AFF?

So far I haven't. If I continue to flail I may spring for it.

Tonto> So what about fear of the door? If you're a new skydiver, that should be high on
Tonto> your list!

I don't think I'm too afraid of the door, but I'll let you judge. (All of my jumps have been
in a 182, so on the ride up, I am sitting behind the pilot, facing the rear.) On a few of my
jumps, there has been someone on the load who gets out at 4K (accuracy or IAD), then we go on
to 10K or so. Sometimes I have been keeping my seatbelt on until the door is closed after the
4K jumper gets out; if I don't have it on I grab the side of the plane until they are gone.
On one of my jumps, I had gotten up on my knees behind my right-side instructor, next to the
door. We were really about 30 seconds out from actually opening the door, but I thought the
opening was imminent. The pilot was making a turn to get on the spot and the right wing was
low and I remember hoping that they didn't open the door just then because I didn't want to
fall out. We got level before the door was actually opened and things were fine. When my
right-side instructor gets out and I scoot up next to the instrument panel, I do hang on to
the door frame with my right hand until I get the word from my instructors to climb out on
the step, but when they say go, I get my hand out on the strut (I think) fairly quickly and
climb out from there.

Tonto> 90% of my problem students have been the ones that don't look at me.

I haven't been having trouble seeing the hand signals, but on the past few dives I have been
chewed on for not making good eye contact during the COA. Some of this, I think, has been
my obsession with "staying stable means looking _straight ahead_".

Tonto> The "Arch" comes more from relaxing the abdominal and pectoral muscles than it does
Tonto> from tensing the muscles in your back.

This is something I need to work on. So far, I feel like the right response to an "arch"
command involves tensing some muscle(s) up _more_, not less.

Tonto> If your instructors have ever asked you to "relax" how could you possibly do that
Tonto> with every muscle in your body quivering in tension?

They have asked me to "relax", and so far, I think I have been interpreting that as something
I need to do in my mind (only), not my mind _and_ my body.

hookncrater> Seriously bro, you are way overanalyzing your jumps.
NWFlyer> But sometimes analyzing can get in the way of relaxing and just feeling the skydive.
Jeth> And from my meager experience, I would agree with the people saying you are WAY
Jeth> over-analyzing everything.
mdrejhon> My instructor is right when the word "relax" is the hardest thing to learn during
mdrejhon> skydiving.
Darshiva8> Relax and don't worry too much.

I detect a theme, here... :)

riggerrob> Forget about using your eyes to find the ripcord.

The thing is, when I do complete a practice touch, my hand almost always goes right to the
handle - it's not like looking even helps that much.

NWFlyer> I still visualize today and find that when I do I tend to have more successful skydives.

So far, when I go over the dive flow, I have been _thinking_ about what I need to do at each
step, but maybe not _visualizing_ it so much. My instructors have been trying to push me
in this direction - once on the ride up, and once on the ground, I started to do the body
motions that I would need for each step, and they stopped me. Their explanation was that if
I'm not going to do _exactly_ what I will do in free fall (because there's not enough room in
the plane, or because I'm just being sloppy on the ground) then I'm just learning bad habits.
I stopped doing the physical motions, but maybe I haven't yet started visualizing everything
all the way through.

Jeth> On the ground, in the plane, just keep touching it without looking.

I have been making it a point to check my handles a couple of times on the way up, but
every time I have done this, I have been looking at each handle as I did it. This may be
how I am mis-training myself to _look_ for the main handle instead of just _reaching_ for
it. (I have been trained that I am _supposed_ to look at the cutaway and reserve handles
before grabbing and pulling them, but not the main.)

Jeth> My instructor had a big thing with getting your other hand out in front of your head
Jeth> at pull time. This was so you didn't drop it down and end up flipping over.

I was trained the same way - put my left hand, palm parallel to earth, way out in front of my
head, as I reach back for the main handle with my right hand. On a couple of my early jumps,
I had my palm down but my hand right on top of my head, or even with my palm flat on my head
(like pushing a hat down), which probably contributed to my tendency to roll right or flip at
pull time.

Avion> I got two words for this: Tunnel Time

I had pondered this. I am somewhat divided between it being a useful training aid, and a
misguided attempt to fix a software (wetware?) problem with hardware.

Avion> I see your in Tulsa, the closest tunnel to you I think is in Eloy, it should be
Avion> open soon (Yea, right they been saying that for a year now Wink)

The closest tunnel that appears to be actually open is in Perris. I have already worked out
the drive time and camping spots between here and California... :)

mdrejhon> I found I am the most relaxed when the goals are kept really simple, like adding
mdrejhon> one new objective to a previously successful jump that I wasn't as tense during.

My instructors and I have been doing something like this, which is part of the reason I have
so many jumps per AFF level.

mdrejhon> My canopy skill is definitely progressing much better than my RW skills.

So far, the canopy part has gone pretty well, I think. On the last few jumps I've been
getting minimal guidance on the radio and have been doing OK, I think. I've yet to stand
one up, but I've gotten close.

Again, thanks for all the replies! I just checked the weather forecast and it's blue skies
this weekend, so I will probably be out giving it another shot.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[darrenspooner 0]

Obviously you need to talk to your instructors, but when I did AFF I was all over the place. Then my instructor, on about my 3rd level 5, told me to go straight into a track soon as I was stable, and then continue with the skydive. It sorted the problem instantly. Something about taking control and relaxing and adopting an easier position. Once I stopped the track after 5 seconds I was stable and on heading and getting on with it.

[MissMelissa 0]

I normally do not reply to many different things, however when my heart pounds I believe there is a power greater than myself that is flowing through -- so if I may, I will share my .02.

I believe the number one common deal amongst new jumpers is a level a fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of equipment, fear at pull-time, fear of the door opening, fear of landing the parachute, fear of performing....

(And I will state, skydiving is 90% mental, 10% physical.)

We must turn our fear into trust and faith. After we've made a jump we have discovered the unknown, that skydiving is truly an exhilerating and wonderful experience and in most, there becomes a sense of wanting more.

In the beginning we can develop a trust of our gear as we check our equipment thouroughly several time before we jump (prior to checking our your equipment or first jump of the day), prior to boarding and prior our exit. We've taken stock in our own destiny.

Conquering your fear at the door or at pull time comes in time. I have well over 6,000 jumps and my heart pounds a bit more and my mind tends to be prepared for the worst in some of those moments. Through time, I've learned to take a breath and trust, like all the jumps prior, I will be taken care of and I accept my fate (usually it's having a great jump & a whole lot of fun, that's why I do it.) With time I developed a mental control by absorbing safety information which dispells my anxiety of fear. And sometimes by having 'control' is accepting the fact we have 'no' control.

I believe that it's a wonderful thing that you are challenging yourself and your instructors. What YOU are teaching your instructors in each jump will be used in their techniques in the future and makes them better and stronger teachers of our sport!

Also, do not put any expectations on each jump - it sets us up for failure. What you have done thus far is amazing. Most people cannot say they've jumped out of a 'perfectly good airplane.'

It's hard to describe without the trust or faith, as I see many people have an imment need to understand each precise movement and how each mechanism effects the air currents of the body, etc. but I believe it's more than that - it's reaching deep inside of yourself and conquering a fear you never knew existed. It's trusting your instructors, your gear, the plane and others. It's finding that moment where you can totally relax your mind and truly not worry about other things we put value on (car, bills, image, etc).

Maybe I'm totally 'out of the ballpark' here. Or maybe I'm just saying this more for myself. But there is a reason why you are doing what you are doing and there is a purpose beyond why you are where you are. But if you, at any time under any circumstance, feel uncomfortable, do not feel like you have to skydive. Skydiving isn't for everyone.

However, those on their right path and have passed that dimension of fear find something amazing - as I have. But it's not always an easy road to travel.

I could ramble on all night, so I'll stop at that. PM if you'd like to hear more. If so or if not, I wish you a wonderful journey!

*melissa*

[TKATC 0]

I used to lower my head at "wave off" just before pulling too. I cured it by making it a point to focus my eyes on the horizon and touch my nose as I performed a wave off. Stupid trick but may make your mental block disappear.