G5fh84 0 #1 July 3, 2005 yesterday one of the D licensed coaches told an A licensed skydiver that he "pulled too close to Kevin (me) and should have pulled at 3500ft minimum with and A license" I was looking in the 2004 SIM and didn't see anything to back this up.....so was this just his opinion or have I missed something in the SIM? Do A licensed skydivers have to pull by 3500ft now??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #2 July 3, 2005 I would go by the SIM and the USPA BSR's. A lot of people get the numbers in their head wrong and never double check things. Do that guy a favor and politely inform him that you checked and couldn't find the recommendation for the higher altitude. If he's a pro, he'll thank you for the info. If he gets pissed, he's an asshat. My question is this: Why was the jumper not laterally separated from you? Was there not enough spacing on exit? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #3 July 3, 2005 Quotehave I missed something in the SIM? Look again and you will find it......not to hard to miss if you are really reading! ok...here is a hint (SIM 2-1) <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #4 July 3, 2005 Yep...RTFM, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #5 July 3, 2005 QuoteQuotehave I missed something in the SIM? Look again and you will find it......not to hard to miss if you are really reading! ok...here is a hint (SIM 2-1) <> Tami What did he miss? 2-1 has the usual 3000ft bit. That said, if A's are still encouraged to have a decision deck of 2500ft, pulling at 3500 makes a lot more sense than at 3. I still like having the space, more time to work with the canopy above 2k. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #6 July 4, 2005 QuoteWhat did he miss? 2-1 has the usual 3000ft bit. I understood the post as NOT FINDING any minimum pull requirement. Maybe I should read harder huh..... <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #7 July 4, 2005 USPA's SIM on-line: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2005SIM/section2.htm#21g ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
G5fh84 0 #8 July 4, 2005 It was a tracking dive, I filmed him track away one dive earlier from a two way and saw his legs wide open and not gaining a lot of speed so we went out to try it together so he could see my track and I thought he had pulled at 3500 to 4000 like he had planned.....and yes it is true he was too close to me on opening but my only point was that I heard him say not only the part about being too close to me but that he should have deployed by 3500ft with an A.........I saw the new 2005 SIM and it still shows 3000ft.....I just thought that maybe there was a change I didn't know about....next time I'll make sure he understands not to follow me down....he did say that he pulled when he saw me pull Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #9 July 4, 2005 That's how those things usually start. Try not to rely on vertical separation too much. The delay of only a few seconds will void a 500 foot vertical separation that was planned. Better to both track away and use lateral separation. I've been burned once or twice the other way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #10 July 4, 2005 The SIM does not say pull by 3000' for A licence it says minimum container opening altitude if you want your container open by 3000' you are going to want to pull sooner. like about 3500'.... like the instructor said Andrew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wgrayw 0 #11 July 5, 2005 I don't know about your container Andrew but mine opens in considerably less than 500 feet. I suggest that you have your rig inspected if you are throwing at 3500 feet to get container opening by 3000 feet. Perhaps you are talking about canopy opening. There is a difference between container opening and canopy opening. The 2004 and 2005 S I M states that A license holders have a minimum container opening altitiude at 3000 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #12 July 5, 2005 I like A-license holders to pull no later than 3000 and can see value in them pulling at 3500. In either case, vertical separation is bullshit and should not be relied except as a last resort (i.e. in the basement, not planned). Horizontal separation is where it's at. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #13 July 5, 2005 Minimum pull alt. A- 3000 B-2500 C & D -2000I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #14 July 5, 2005 QuoteI don't know about your container Andrew but mine opens in considerably less than 500 feet. I suggest that you have your rig inspected if you are throwing at 3500 feet to get container opening by 3000 feet. Perhaps you are talking about canopy opening. There is a difference between container opening and canopy opening. The 2004 and 2005 S I M states that A license holders have a minimum container opening altitiude at 3000 feet. All it takes at freefall speeds is a lazy pull, trouble finding the hackey or a couple of seconds in the burble and you will blow past 3000' We are talking about new jumpers with 30 to 50 or so jumps. It does say, the container has to be open, not the pilot chute has been tossed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #15 July 5, 2005 QuoteAll it takes at freefall speeds is a lazy pull, trouble finding the hackey or a couple of seconds in the burble and you will blow past 3000' We are talking about new jumpers with 30 to 50 or so jumps. It does say, the container has to be open, not the pilot chute has been tossed. We've seen postings here from Bill Booth stating that the ideal time to line stretch from pilot chute release is around .6 seconds. Container opening happens sooner. I wrote earlier that decision deck is a bigger deal and a good reason for As to pull higher than 3. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wgrayw 0 #16 July 5, 2005 That wasn't what your original post said. Nor is it what the original post was. What you said (parphrasing)was it took 500 feet for your container, or a container to open. The reason A license holders are already asked to pull higher, at 3000 feet, versus 2500 or 2000 feet, is to give them time to recognize a problem and execute emergency procedures. That is because we recognize that they are less experienced. Are you advocating even higher minimums? Why don't we say 5000 feet for A license holders? Because that raises other, perhaps more serious safety questions in relation to other skydivers in the air. In fact why don't we have all A license holders do hop and pops from 13500 just in case they have a lazy pull, or a pilot chute in tow, or any other potentially lethal problem? The 3000 foot minimum container opening altitude is fine for A license holders. It does not preclude one from pulling higher. Just let someone know that you intend to pull at a higher than normal altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
174fps 1 #17 July 5, 2005 QuoteThat wasn't what your original post said. Nor is it what the original post was. What you said (parphrasing)was it took 500 feet for your container, or a container to open. No, thats what you said, I said that if you want to get your container open by 3000' you would need to pull higher, 3500' was suggested by the original post. what do you want me to say 3098?. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #18 July 6, 2005 QuoteThe SIM does not say pull by 3000' for A licence it says minimum container opening altitude if you want your container open by 3000' you are going to want to pull sooner. like about 3500'.... like the instructor said Andrew Silly rules. You have direct control over when you throw out. You don't have direct control over when the container actually opens.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #19 July 6, 2005 QuoteSilly rules. You have direct control over when you throw out. You don't have direct control over when the container actually opens. Kallend - you are being a bit myopic there. Anyone that uses a pull-out, aka pud, has direct control over when the pin is pulled. That is one of its advantages. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteSilly rules. You have direct control over when you throw out. You don't have direct control over when the container actually opens. Kallend - you are being a bit myopic there. Anyone that uses a pull-out, aka pud, has direct control over when the pin is pulled. That is one of its advantages. . So should rules be written for the 5% population, or the 95%? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #21 July 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteSilly rules. You have direct control over when you throw out. You don't have direct control over when the container actually opens. Kallend - you are being a bit myopic there. Anyone that uses a pull-out, aka pud, has direct control over when the pin is pulled. That is one of its advantages. . Why not change the wording so that it applies rationally to all the rest of the skydiving population?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #22 July 6, 2005 By "A-licensed..." I know you're referring to novice jumpers, but shouldn't the SIM refer to "A-qualified", etc.? According to the current terminology, my "A" license & I would be required to pull higher and avoid the main landing area at many DZ's, despite my nearly 800 jumps. That said, I'm pleased to know I can still "legally" dump at 2000', and probably will again someday, but I've gotten into the pull-above-3000' rut and can't seem to get out. Oh well. Cheers, Jon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balls 0 #23 July 7, 2005 I am the "A licenced jumper" in the origional post. The D licensed coach said that I need to be "in the saddle" by 3500 feet. I threw out the pc at 3500', the same time Kevin did. According to Kevin's pro track he was in the saddle at 2900' and I was open slightly higher than he was. Yes I was too close horizontaly. So from what I've gathered thus far I can still pull at 3500'?---------------------------------------- ....so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 July 7, 2005 QuoteSo from what I've gathered thus far I can still pull at 3500'? Per the BSRs, yes. 3000 even, though you've read many reasons not to go to the minimum height. Per dive flow planning for a given jump, dive the plan. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #25 July 7, 2005 And ofcourse a DZ can make it's own rules.... FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
