MarkM 0 #51 June 18, 2005 Quote So if a rule is not strongly enforced there is no need to follow it? Where do you draw the line? Sparky You tell me. Do you always come to a full stop at a stop sign? Do you never exceed the speed limit? Have you never gone through a cloud while skydiving? You've never downloaded a mp3? Never touched a beer until you were 21? I'm betting you've broken laws most every day of your life, just like everyone else in the world does. Amazingly enough, society doesn't break down and crumble because of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #52 June 19, 2005 QuoteQuote So if a rule is not strongly enforced there is no need to follow it? Where do you draw the line? Sparky You tell me. Do you always come to a full stop at a stop sign? Do you never exceed the speed limit? Have you never gone through a cloud while skydiving? You've never downloaded a mp3? Never touched a beer until you were 21? I'm betting you've broken laws most every day of your life, just like everyone else in the world does. Amazingly enough, society doesn't break down and crumble because of it. But we were not talking about driving or beer, we were taking about skydivers that feel it is their right to do just as they damn well please on someone elses dime. We were talking about jumping with an out of date reserve. This can and has caused problems for people other than the one that thinks iit is no big deal. And I asked you, "where do you draw the line". I know where I do. If you don't want to answer the question just say so don't dance around it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #53 June 19, 2005 >It's also a very good idea for your safety . . . More frequent reserve repacks both increase the odds you will catch a mistake by a previous rigger, and increases the odds that a rigger will _make_ a mistake. Each time you I+R a rig you have the possibility of a screwup. They cancel each other out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #54 June 19, 2005 >Because it's more important to understand the idea behind the >rules, why they're in place and how those issues affect you, than to > just follow them blindly. The reason to 'follow them blindly' in this case is that you are not risking yourself by jumping a well-maintained out of date rig, you're risking the pilot's license and the DZO's business. By all means, understand when you need a repack and when you don't from a functional point of view. And it's not always on the 121st day of the repack cycle. But unless you own the DZ and fly the plane yourself, I don't think it's right to put someone else at risk to save a few bucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #55 June 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have a hunch there are a lot of rigger-owned rigs out there that get repacked once/year whether they need it or not. Wow, you really think they pack it that often Riggers know better than to bite the hand that feeds them and so I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of riggers out there who show courtesy to their DZO's by having an in-date reserve, regardless of when it was last repacked. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #56 June 19, 2005 QuoteMore frequent reserve repacks both increase the odds you will catch a mistake by a previous rigger, and increases the odds that a rigger will _make_ a mistake. Each time you I+R a rig you have the possibility of a screwup. They cancel each other out. Just like Schrodinger's cat, eh? Every time my reserve gets repacked, it get a little more wear and tear. I can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Don't tell me "FAR 105" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #57 June 19, 2005 Maintenance schedules need some sort of minimum standard/bottom line. An annual inspection on a privately-owned airplane or CSPA's 180 day/annual inspect and repack on skydiving reserves are the bare minimum needed to catch corrosion, service bulletins, etc. Every maintenance schedule is an educated guess at when airplanes/parachutes/machines, etc. will wear, fray, corrode, etc. to the point of risking lives. Maintenance schedules try to catch those wear and tear issues before they endanger lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #58 June 19, 2005 Twice a year is 50% better than every 120 days in my book. Thanks, Rob. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #59 June 19, 2005 Quote We were talking about jumping with an out of date reserve. This can and has caused problems for people other than the one that thinks iit is no big deal. The specific question I was answering was about jumping an out of date reserve if there were no enforced rules. If the FAA wasn't regulating it, if the DZ or pilot wouldn't get in trouble if something went wrong. That's an entirely different situation that the one you just described. Quote And I asked you, "where do you draw the line". I know where I do. If you don't want to answer the question just say so don't dance around it. Where I draw the line is where the consqeuences are for my actions. If they're just on me and I know the rule is drek, I'll bend or break it. But if other people can get into trouble for what I'm doing then I pretty much follow it blindly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #60 June 19, 2005 Quote>Because it's more important to understand the idea behind the >rules, why they're in place and how those issues affect you, than to > just follow them blindly. The reason to 'follow them blindly' in this case is that you are not risking yourself by jumping a well-maintained out of date rig, you're risking the pilot's license and the DZO's business. By all means, understand when you need a repack and when you don't from a functional point of view. And it's not always on the 121st day of the repack cycle. But unless you own the DZ and fly the plane yourself, I don't think it's right to put someone else at risk to save a few bucks. Hence the 2nd post of this thread where I wrote: It's not a small deal, the pilot of the plane can lose his license if something happened and the FAA found out your reserve was out of date. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoMMO 0 #61 June 19, 2005 I'll ditto that! As a person who earns a living flying airplanes I will NOT jump with an out of date reserve. This past winter I took my rig with me to Perris. When I discovered my reserve was out by just a couple days I put it back in the plane and went "oh, well", I'll have it ready for the next trip out. BG, ATP Falcon 2000, D-11602 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #62 June 20, 2005 > I can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why >does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Cause FAA regulations lag parachute development. I'd be all for the manufacturers, rather than the FAA, setting repack cycle times - they're the ones who know the gear, and they're the ones who are at risk for lawsuits if their reserves go too long without being repacked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #63 June 20, 2005 Quote> I can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why >does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Cause FAA regulations lag parachute development. I'd be all for the manufacturers, rather than the FAA, setting repack cycle times - they're the ones who know the gear, and they're the ones who are at risk for lawsuits if their reserves go too long without being repacked. I'll drink to that. The old regs had repack every 60 days, written for silk and twill reserves in cotton containers that were subject to mildew and insect damage. I believe that's the cycle still required should you have any natural materials in your reserve or container. The FAA simply doubled the old standard for the new nylon gear (after much lobbying from the USPA), but it's still an arbitrary length of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #64 June 20, 2005 Where I draw the line is where the consqeuences are for my actions. If they're just on me and I know the rule is drek, I'll bend or break it. But if other people can get into trouble for what I'm doing then I pretty much follow it blindly. That answers the question I was asking. And I think is answers it very well and I agree. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #65 June 20, 2005 The Australian Parachute Federation has recently talked about increasing the Re-Pack cycle from 6 months to 1 year. I can't remember who said it, possibly Brian Germain or someone from PD but I remember hearing that in the tests they did they found no difference in reserve packing safety for any period over 3 months ie 6 or 12 month old reserve pack jobs function just as well. I don't have the experience to pass comment, just repeating what I have heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #66 June 20, 2005 QuoteThe Australian Parachute Federation has recently talked about increasing the Re-Pack cycle from 6 months to 1 year. I can't remember who said it, possibly Brian Germain or someone from PD but I remember hearing that in the tests they did they found no difference in reserve packing safety for any period over 3 months ie 6 or 12 month old reserve pack jobs function just as well. I don't have the experience to pass comment, just repeating what I have heard. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a reserve sits on the shelf for 3 months or 6 months or 12 months, there will be no measurable difference in opening times. Rubber bands don't rot out until after at least two years in the heat and dust of the California desert. Any time short of 2 years - on the shelf - 99.99% of sport reserves will open fine. The real question is how much wear and tear a container suffers during regular jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 104 #67 June 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteRiggers know better than to bite the hand that feeds them and so I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of riggers out there who show courtesy to their DZO's by having an in-date reserve, regardless of when it was last repacked. Exactly! I have never met a rigger with an out of date reserve.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Governor 0 #68 June 27, 2005 Your pilot takes the hit if your reserve is out and you get ramp checked by the FAA. There is no "grace period," if it is out it is out. Now do the math! If there is an accident of some sort an investigation will certainly follow and you, the pilot, the DZ and anyone else associated with it can be fined and/or have ratings suspended/revoked or both. An expired reserve has exponential implications particularly if a student is at issue. If the reserve had nothing to do with the accident, enforcement action by the FEDS may still be severe!! Now, do you really want to put all of your friends at risk? You know, the pilot you like to fly with, the instructors you grew up with and respect, all because you are too lazy or tight to spend the time and effort to tend to your reserve? Come on, you are talking about $45 in most cases. Your instuctor(s), never told you these things? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #69 June 27, 2005 QuoteI can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Why do aircraft flown for commercial use have to have 100-hours inspections when if only used for personal use, they only require annual inspections? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #70 June 27, 2005 Ahh. Oldest reserve packjob I ever used was 3.5 years old. What's that... 38 months out of date in the US? It's only 36 months here. It was a friends gear and he'd stopped jumping. I'd gone out to the DZ and needed to do a back to back dive. Of course, the worst happened. Can't remember the details, but I needed to chop, and did. I had a hard, fast on heading opening. These days I tend to stick to the rules, which here, are 6 months for reserve repacks. I don't beleive that 120 or even 180 day repack cycles are required. I think it should be a year or 500 jumps, whichever comes first. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #71 June 27, 2005 QuoteQuote For the life me I cannot understand why so many people are so willing to ignore rules, regulations, recommendations and everything else associated with skydiving safety....I just don't get it. Because it's more important to understand the idea behind the rules, why they're in place and how those issues affect you, than to just follow them blindly. Yes, and like any other rules, etc....they can be changed, updated, modified (hopefully for the better)...whatever...until then, it's simple - play by the rules.... From what I can tell, our current BSRs err on the side of safety....not a bad thing.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #72 June 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteI can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Why do aircraft flown for commercial use have to have 100-hours inspections when if only used for personal use, they only require annual inspections? Derek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the average private pilot only flies 40 or 50 hours per year (quoting Chris Heintz) and rust is far greater risk on privately owned airplanes. They have to set a minimum standard somewhere. On the other hand, if you are flying a commercially registered airplane less than 200 hours per year, you are in the wrong business. Busy commercial airplanes fly more than 100 hours per month, ergo they need to be inspected far more often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kevinwhelan 0 #73 June 27, 2005 QuoteOldest reserve packjob I ever used was 3.5 years old. What's that... 38 months out of date in the US? It's only 36 months here. It was a friends gear and he'd stopped jumping. I'd gone out to the DZ and needed to do a back to back dive. Just out of intrest. Did you know this before you jumped ? My original question was more to do with jumpers attitudes to the reserve repack cycle. ie. is it just a bothersome rule, or a justified safety feature. It seems from most replys that people would be happy from a safety viewpoint to extend the cycle way beyond its current 120 day/6 month period. This leads to the questions, Who decides the lenght of time between repacks? Should there be a stronger lobby to extend it? who thinks the current period is the correct one? "be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #74 June 28, 2005 I knew before I jumped, and it never bothered me at the time. I knew the owner, I knew how the gear had been stored, and I figured if I needed the reserve - it would work, and if it didn't, I wouldn't have to go to work on Monday. It was a different time in my life, and a very different time in my country. Life was cheap back then, and living seemed a little more random than it does now. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #75 June 30, 2005 Didn't you know? no one ever jumps an out of date reserve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Governor 0 #68 June 27, 2005 Your pilot takes the hit if your reserve is out and you get ramp checked by the FAA. There is no "grace period," if it is out it is out. Now do the math! If there is an accident of some sort an investigation will certainly follow and you, the pilot, the DZ and anyone else associated with it can be fined and/or have ratings suspended/revoked or both. An expired reserve has exponential implications particularly if a student is at issue. If the reserve had nothing to do with the accident, enforcement action by the FEDS may still be severe!! Now, do you really want to put all of your friends at risk? You know, the pilot you like to fly with, the instructors you grew up with and respect, all because you are too lazy or tight to spend the time and effort to tend to your reserve? Come on, you are talking about $45 in most cases. Your instuctor(s), never told you these things? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #69 June 27, 2005 QuoteI can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Why do aircraft flown for commercial use have to have 100-hours inspections when if only used for personal use, they only require annual inspections? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #70 June 27, 2005 Ahh. Oldest reserve packjob I ever used was 3.5 years old. What's that... 38 months out of date in the US? It's only 36 months here. It was a friends gear and he'd stopped jumping. I'd gone out to the DZ and needed to do a back to back dive. Of course, the worst happened. Can't remember the details, but I needed to chop, and did. I had a hard, fast on heading opening. These days I tend to stick to the rules, which here, are 6 months for reserve repacks. I don't beleive that 120 or even 180 day repack cycles are required. I think it should be a year or 500 jumps, whichever comes first. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #71 June 27, 2005 QuoteQuote For the life me I cannot understand why so many people are so willing to ignore rules, regulations, recommendations and everything else associated with skydiving safety....I just don't get it. Because it's more important to understand the idea behind the rules, why they're in place and how those issues affect you, than to just follow them blindly. Yes, and like any other rules, etc....they can be changed, updated, modified (hopefully for the better)...whatever...until then, it's simple - play by the rules.... From what I can tell, our current BSRs err on the side of safety....not a bad thing.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #72 June 27, 2005 QuoteQuoteI can fly in an airplane that only gets inspected once a year. Why does my nylon reserve have to be repacked every 120 days? Why do aircraft flown for commercial use have to have 100-hours inspections when if only used for personal use, they only require annual inspections? Derek >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the average private pilot only flies 40 or 50 hours per year (quoting Chris Heintz) and rust is far greater risk on privately owned airplanes. They have to set a minimum standard somewhere. On the other hand, if you are flying a commercially registered airplane less than 200 hours per year, you are in the wrong business. Busy commercial airplanes fly more than 100 hours per month, ergo they need to be inspected far more often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kevinwhelan 0 #73 June 27, 2005 QuoteOldest reserve packjob I ever used was 3.5 years old. What's that... 38 months out of date in the US? It's only 36 months here. It was a friends gear and he'd stopped jumping. I'd gone out to the DZ and needed to do a back to back dive. Just out of intrest. Did you know this before you jumped ? My original question was more to do with jumpers attitudes to the reserve repack cycle. ie. is it just a bothersome rule, or a justified safety feature. It seems from most replys that people would be happy from a safety viewpoint to extend the cycle way beyond its current 120 day/6 month period. This leads to the questions, Who decides the lenght of time between repacks? Should there be a stronger lobby to extend it? who thinks the current period is the correct one? "be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #74 June 28, 2005 I knew before I jumped, and it never bothered me at the time. I knew the owner, I knew how the gear had been stored, and I figured if I needed the reserve - it would work, and if it didn't, I wouldn't have to go to work on Monday. It was a different time in my life, and a very different time in my country. Life was cheap back then, and living seemed a little more random than it does now. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #75 June 30, 2005 Didn't you know? no one ever jumps an out of date reserve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
