DZ Ethics

[Airman1270 0]

Last month I showed up for the first time since January (still jobless) with two out-of-date rigs. The rigger updated my reserve card so I could jump, with the understanding that I'd leave the rig overnight so he could do the repack the following morning.

Of course, he's the same rigger who had packed it the last time; otherwise, he wouldn't have signed the card. If I understand what you're saying, the rigger who pencil packed the guy's reserve was not the same one who packed it. Wouldn't this be somewhat uncommon?

By the way, I'd never jumped my old rig at this DZ. I understand the sight of my Strong lopo stretched out on the packing mat drew some attention.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Last month I showed up for the first time since January (still jobless) with two out-of-date rigs. The rigger updated my reserve card so I could jump, with the understanding that I'd leave the rig overnight so he could do the repack the following morning.

Of course, he's the same rigger who had packed it the last time; otherwise, he wouldn't have signed the card. If I understand what you're saying, the rigger who pencil packed the guy's reserve was not the same one who packed it. Wouldn't this be somewhat uncommon?

I wouldn't care if a rigger pencil packed a reserve. Then it is on them, not anyone else. If they pencil packed a reserve and it had a problem because another rigger packed it last and made a mistake, the pencil packing rigger gets the blame. If they are willing to do that and take that risk, it's on them.

That is different from someone without a rigger's ticket pencil packing a rig.

Derek

[airtwardo 7]

Right, but what about using/breaking the FAR's to generate rigging business?

***

And there is the problem Hook...

I would hope my rigger is more ethical that the DZ itself.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jumperconway 0]

Derek.
You were my first rigger in my jumping career. When U left, I adopted you're protege. Chris. Enough said.

[livenletfly 0]

i think that the dz in question is totaly fucked up putting a pilots carrer on the line without consulting with him first! if their rigger wants to pencil pack the rig putting his name on another riggers pack job so be it. at least he has a choice, unlike the pilot.
i agree with the comment, "what else does this dz let slide?" also why was this jumper so unwilling to let the dz rigger re-pack him? from his point of view he should have been stoked. he gets to jump, and he needs the repack anyway. so does he not trust that rigger?
the whole situation is shady and in poor taste. is all that potential trouble worth a few slots on a plane? NO IT IS NOT!!!!

>

[riggerrob 643]

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excuse me, doesn't anyone have a pen?

I use a stamp for this very reason. If someone pencil packs (forges my signature) my reserve pack job, I will charge them for that re-pack and refuse to ever pack their reserve again.

Derek

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

There is a much simpler solution: every time my name appears on a packing data card in Pitt Meadows, I earn CAN$65.
Whether the signature is my hand-writing is irrelevant.
Whether the card has my stamp is irrelevant.
Whether the reserve has my seal is irrelevant.

The last two people - who found out about this policy the hard way - were so offended that they never brought their rigs back to me.

[flyangel2 2]

The jumper should not have let his reserve pack expire We are all adults, we need to be responsible and make sure the reserve is in date. I have never showed up at a DZ with an out of date reserve, I know (with some help from my rigger) when my reserve needs a repack.

Which reminds me, we need to met up this week for my re-pack. Drop me a PM so we can set up our "date".

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[davelepka 4]

Is it possible that the DZ rigger was willing to sign and seal the rig to make it legal for the pilot?

If the DZ rigger knew and trusted the last rigger who packed the rig, maybe he would consider signing and sealing the rig with the stipulation that it not leave his 'sight' until he had the chance to actually do the re-pack.

Just a thought.

[Harksaw 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a rigger not be responsible for anything if someone forged their signature, because to prove it was forged you could just look at the signing on the tail tag on the reserve canopy?

Or do all reserves not have you sign the tag on the tail?

__________________________________________________
I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait.

[billvon 3,067]

>They were trying to get the jumper to change to a DZ rigger.

If that were me five years ago, I would have jumped, left and given it to my usual rigger.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Is it possible that the DZ rigger was willing to sign and seal the rig to make it legal for the pilot?

Nope, that wasn't part of the deal.

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If the DZ rigger knew and trusted the last rigger who packed the rig, maybe he would consider signing and sealing the rig with the stipulation that it not leave his 'sight' until he had the chance to actually do the re-pack.

I packed it last and don't know the DZ rigger.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a rigger not be responsible for anything if someone forged their signature, because to prove it was forged you could just look at the signing on the tail tag on the reserve canopy?

Or do all reserves not have you sign the tag on the tail?

Only PD's have a requirement to mark the label on the reserve and that is only a '/' for a re-pack, and an 'x' for a re-pack after a deployment.

No telling what the FAA would do if someone forged the card. I do not want to be the rigger in question in order to find out.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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They were trying to get the jumper to change to a DZ rigger.

If that were me five years ago, I would have jumped, left and given it to my usual rigger.

That is good. I wonder what the DZ would have done if this jumper did that.

I have gotten 3 or 4 PM's from people that have had this same exact thing happen at the same DZ.

Derek

[davelepka 4]

In that case, it sounds shady.

[tigra 0]

I wouldn't like it. Then again, I hope at this point I know better than to bring an out of date reserve card to manifest!

[flyangel2 2]

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I wouldn't like it. Then again, I hope at this point I know better than to bring an out of date reserve card to manifest!

The DZ that Hook is talking about has your reserve date in the manifest computer. So if you know your reserve is about to expire, then why not get it to the rigger of your choosing. If you don't know your reserve is about to expire, then when manifest calls you back to window because your name flashed that your reserve is out of date, you better fix the card before you get to the window.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[tigra 0]

Exactly! My dz also keeps reserve dates in the system. There are times when I don't know the exact expiration date, but I always know when I'm close and I double check BEFORE I manifest and do what needs to be done.

I guess if the guy was dumb enough to go to manifest with an expired reserve card and they offered him a solution so he could jump...........

I still don't like it. No way should manifest be directly involved with or encouraging pencil packing! Its very stupid on their part to even make the suggestion.

And I've dealt with the whole "Why don't you use OUR rigger?" bs, which I also don't like.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I would be a little careful about how honest we all get here.Lets not forget this is a public forum.I wonder how long it would take the FAA to figure out who we are and who our rigger is.

[flyangel2 2]

Yup, agree with you there, it is the jumpers responsibility to make sure his reserve is in date.

Spencer, I don't think the FAA is going to waste it's time tracking down some skydiver that admits to pencil packing his reserve. There are more important things going on in the life of FAA people.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[packerboy 3]

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Spencer, I don't think the FAA is going to waste it's time tracking down some skydiver that admits to pencil packing his reserve. There are more important things going on in the life of FAA people.

Sure, but playing with the careers of the pilots, DZO, instructors, manifestor etc. etc. is not a nice thing to do no matter how slim the chance.

If you have a problem with the way a situation is handled, than it is in everyones best interest to point your concerns out to the people in question so that at least they have the chance to support their own case. Perhaps and most likely a sour situation was created simply by misinterpretation of intentions by way of lack of communication on both parties.

If anything I would say that if you are going to go the route of pencil packing than the onus is on the rigger who's signature appears on the card. But it is completely unfair to the pilot for anyone who works on the DZ to willingly allow someone on the load with an out of date card without the pilots knowledge and consent. I would be severely fucking pissed if I was a pilot and lost my license because someone in manifest decided it was ok and then something happened to initiate an official investigation. We have to look out for each other and I include the pilots in my DZ family.

The FAA won't waste it's time with someone who admits to pencil packing, unless that information comes out during the investigation of a serious incident. Then the fit would hit the shan.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[flyangel2 2]

I agree, pencil packing is bad for all those at the DZ if there is a accident when the FAA has to come in and check out things. For the manifest to allow the jumper to jump with an expired reserve was wrong. Where is the line drawn?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey