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The tandem passengers are not told that they could do it all right and still die.
You don't do that in CA? In AR, we verbally spell out the waiver, specifically mentioning the part about you can still die even if you do everythign right. I've seen similar stuff done in MO, IL and CO.
-Blind
"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."
QuoteYou don't do that in CA? In AR, we verbally spell out the waiver, specifically mentioning the part about you can still die even if you do everythign right. I've seen similar stuff done in MO, IL and CO.
I'm sure the waiver is nice and lurid, and you have Bill Booth on the video doing the same. Just like every waiver for every remotely risky sport. People tune out after the first paragraph. I'm not sure about any verbal readings- I've seen several that ask the participant to handwrite out a passage of legalese indicating risk and acceptance.
It's not the same as when someone asks and gets that answer. That's when we see the 'more dangerous to drive to the DZ' stuff.
Hi, Tom. I think your assessment of this is dead on. This case was delivered to me by e-mail on Thursday, but I didn't have time to read it.
In looking at this discussion, I see a couple of different things in skydiving to where this case applies:
1) On the ride up to altitude; and
2) Tandems
There is no doubt that skydiving is a "recreational ride." Fortunately for the DZ, this ride would apparently end with exit from the aircraft for solo jumpers. However, it appears that tandems would also be under the purvey of this "common carrier" rule.
In Cali, a "common carrier" is everyoen who offers to the public to carry persons, property or messages. A carrier of persons for reward must use the utmost care and diligence for their safe carriage. A carrier for reward is bound to provide vehicles safe and fitr for the purpose to which they are put and is not excused for default in this respect by any degree of care.
I do see one thing that may take tandem skydiving out of the realm of "common carrier." That is if the tandem operations ensure that they do not warrant that tandem skydiving is "safe." I've seen Bill Booth talk about the dangers in video. There are waivers that suggest that it is not.
California does poitn out that many other states do not take such a broad view of a "common carrier." However, this does create an interesting new wrinkle on things...
My wife is hotter than your wife.
In looking at this discussion, I see a couple of different things in skydiving to where this case applies:
1) On the ride up to altitude; and
2) Tandems
There is no doubt that skydiving is a "recreational ride." Fortunately for the DZ, this ride would apparently end with exit from the aircraft for solo jumpers. However, it appears that tandems would also be under the purvey of this "common carrier" rule.
In Cali, a "common carrier" is everyoen who offers to the public to carry persons, property or messages. A carrier of persons for reward must use the utmost care and diligence for their safe carriage. A carrier for reward is bound to provide vehicles safe and fitr for the purpose to which they are put and is not excused for default in this respect by any degree of care.
I do see one thing that may take tandem skydiving out of the realm of "common carrier." That is if the tandem operations ensure that they do not warrant that tandem skydiving is "safe." I've seen Bill Booth talk about the dangers in video. There are waivers that suggest that it is not.
California does poitn out that many other states do not take such a broad view of a "common carrier." However, this does create an interesting new wrinkle on things...
My wife is hotter than your wife.
sweep 0
QuoteI'm sure the waiver is nice and lurid, and you have Bill Booth on the video doing the same. Just like every waiver for every remotely risky sport. People tune out after the first paragraph. I'm not sure about any verbal readings- I've seen several that ask the participant to handwrite out a passage of legalese indicating risk and acceptance
At the DZ where I manifest, when I give tandem students the club indemnity (waiver) to sign, I say to them "This makes you a member of Skydive Strathallan, which you need to be to jump here. When you sign this you're saying you understand that skydiving is not an everyday activity. There is an element of risk,although it's highly controlled, and in the unlikely event that something were to happen you wouldn't sue the club, the landowner and so on".
I think that strikes a good balance between reassuring them that we're not a bunch of cowboys and reminding them that they aren't playing golf for the afternoon. And it brings out the salient points of the indemnity. I'd be interested in what other people think though.
We also have signs up all over the premises saying "Skydiving is dangerous. Just by being here you risk serious injury or death. If you cannot accept this risk go home now."
Sweep
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Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..
Yay! I'm now a 200 jump wonder.... Still a know-it-all tho..
The tandem passengers are not told that they could do it all right and still die. And more than a few dance a bit on the danger question, though I don't think I've seen any web sites recently that try the safer than driver BS.
But in the overall, I don't think you can compare jumping to rollercoaster rides. There is clearly no illusion of danger, it's really there.
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