StearmanR985 0 #26 March 29, 2004 QuoteWow, I'm going to bite off a big one here. "Conditionaly" yes. The problem lies in without experience a novice/beginer (sub 200) jumper is a far worse judge of what is "too" aggresive. This is another excellent point. This is why it is important that the low timer should ask people he/she trusts (and that know their abilities) before actually making the decision to downsize. QuotePeople wishing to downsize should REALLY be able to justify why. I'll bet most of them can't. A serious question for you JP; What are the justifiable reasons a person should downsize? We can take this to PM if that would be better. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #27 March 29, 2004 QuoteA serious question for you JP; What are the justifiable reasons a person should downsize? We can take this to PM if that would be better. The one that will be the reason when I decide to downsize is "I want more speed/performance but cannot wring anything more out of my current canopy" meaning that I have flown it to it's limit. Before that occurs I will not be downsizing.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #28 March 29, 2004 QuoteA serious question for you JP; What are the justifiable reasons a person should downsize? We can take this to PM if that would be better. No that's ok. But you've got me now..... A person should downsize because they want to, but it's the figuring out if they need or should to that's the hard part. Some people say they want to downsize because their canopy doesn't "flare right" at their light loading, or others say they can't swoop their canopy. billvon has an excelent guide for finding out if you're ready to downsize or not. Maybe someone can find it. Youre a pilot right? Could a student pilot who has flown nothing bigger or more powerful than a 172, in an emergency land a Gulfstream V? Probably. Should they be allowed to hop in the pilots seat and take it for a spin without training, or supervision? No way, and the regulating body (the FAA) won't let him. Unfortunately the regulating body in this sport has not figgured out how to fairly do that, so we leave it to the instructors, S&TA's, DZO's and the people who sell gear that choose to do so. The problem with this system is that one person may say one thing and another something different. Then the potential buyer picks the answer he/she likes best, not the one that might be more sensible. Here is the short list created by billvon: The short version of the list is below. Before people downsize, they should be able to: flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet flare turn at least 45 degrees land crosswind and in no wind land reliably within a 10 meter circle initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing land on slight uphills and downhills land with rear risers the full version can be found here: Downsizing Checklist ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #29 March 29, 2004 ***Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice but still be safe? ----------------------------------------------------------- YES. Some low timers can be safe under an aggresive canopy. The trouble is, nobody knows which low timers that is until it's too late. One of the problems with newbies and understanding the importance of good choices under canooy is that the people who show us what bad choices can do are no longer with us. They may not be dead, but they're not hanging around the DZ anymore. Sometimes it takes seeing the tragdey of life changing (or ending) injuries to a fellow jumper to really make someone understand that they are playing with fire when they push the limits of canopy selection and usage. Think for a moment about never being able to jump again. Sounds horrible to me, although it pales in comparison to never being able to walk again, or never being free of pain. This is the reality of what happens when you make bad choices. I've seen it, others have seen it, and the fatality/incident reports comfirm it. Here's a general message to newbies: SLOW DOWN. Spend your small canopy money on more jumps. If you are not doing 10 jumps a day, at least twice a week, you need to jump more. The ground is hard and it can and will kill you. Everyone who was either seriously injured or killed under an open canopy thought "It will never happen to me". It will happen to anyone at anytime. Fly an appropraitly sized canopy, and stay out of its way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #30 March 29, 2004 Yep, I have Billvons list at home and I actually use it too. I found it MOST helpful. The only thing left for me to work on is the rear riser landing itself which is on my list for this coming weekend. Also, I will be incorporating some very gentle carving with fronts as well as part of my landing. Oh, and hillside landings, we have no hills here.... Thanks JP, Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #31 March 29, 2004 Quotewe have no hills here.... I know, Lodi is pretty flat. Have bodypilot drive his shiny truck into the landing area, put up the bed cover and use that. He won't mind at all, not like it's custom paint or anything......---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #32 March 29, 2004 QuoteYep, I have Billvons list at home and I actually use it too. I found it MOST helpful. The only thing left for me to work on is the rear riser landing itself which is on my list for this coming weekend. Also, I will be incorporating some very gentle carving with fronts as well as part of my landing. Oh, and hillside landings, we have no hills here.... Thanks JP, Jeff *** Jeff, also try working on accuracy. This weekend will be a good chance at Lodi to see what the canopy traffic is like when we do small formation 36 ways. Make sure someone is watching you also when doing your rear riser landings and has the sense to call for medical attention should you need it?www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StearmanR985 0 #33 March 29, 2004 Quote*** Jeff, also try working on accuracy. This weekend will be a good chance at Lodi to see what the canopy traffic is like when we do small formation 36 ways. Make sure someone is watching you also when doing your rear riser landings and has the sense to call for medical attention should you need it? Hey, I am just following the list..... If something happens just kick me to the side out of everyone's way, it'll heal eventually. If something really bad happens, just push me to the side, cover me with a little dirt , give my rig to a needy student and call it good. BTW, I am willing the remainder of my jump tickets to you, if you want them. J/K of course. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #34 March 30, 2004 ian could you please answer my questions from my earlier post about this jumpers background. thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #35 March 30, 2004 It's just my wild guess, but I bet you that dude bought the canopy online in the off season and just showed up at whatever dz you were at to avoid problems with people who know better at another DZ. With 400 jumps that guy has no business whatsoever under that main. actualy skymonkey no. he jumped it for over a year at his original dz before he came to us. im not sure why nobody stopped him i waqsnt there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #36 March 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteif they arent going to listen to you tell them not to jump and the s&ta isnt going to ground them.... might as well help teach them how to fly it... This is actually an excellent point of view. I am quite new to the sport and am looking to downsize very shortly. I have a Sabre2 demo on the way (hopefully). I am not looking to hear "OMG WTF are you thinking?" What people like me ARE looking for is advice/instruction on how to properly and safely fly our new canopies. Can't some of us 'low timers' make a SEMI aggressive canopy choice but still be safe? I would like to think with proper instruction and flying conservativley as our skills improve the answer would be yes. Jeff the problem isnt if somone can land a canopy or even if they can fly it well... the problem resides in experiance. experiance in knowing when and where what is too much. peaple say "emergency landings" well trust me. if you get under alot of stress for some reason. "like an off landing""or somone cutting you off".... wich happens ALL the time, then you are way more likely to make an abrupt decision that is going to hurt you. this kind of thing happens all the time... ALL the time....the canopy he is jumping at the wingload he was jumping it matches mine. i didnt get there untill 1800 jumps. i didnt get there by choice. i could have gotten to where i am a lot earlier if i had chose too, but would i be typing this right now? would i still be skydiving? would i be crippled?. who knows.... with jump numbers and more importantly currency, and time in the sport, becomes the knowledge of how easily a stupid little mistake can affect you and your family's entire life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #37 March 30, 2004 QuoteIt's just my wild guess, but I bet you that dude bought the canopy online in the off season and just showed up at whatever dz you were at to avoid problems with people who know better at another DZ. With 400 jumps that guy has no business whatsoever under that main. actualy skymonkey no. he jumped it for over a year at his original dz before he came to us. im not sure why nobody stopped him i waqsnt there. well the canopy was NEW. he said he had 4 jumps on it. me and ian did 2 jumps with him. so now i would say he has 6 jumps on the canopy. his skill showed also. he was over controlling the canopy in a big way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ffejdraga 0 #38 March 30, 2004 Quote so you better do everything in your power to prove you're capable of handling the canopy (this is after he biffed himself in stalling the canopy on rears after trying to dig out of a low turn) The key for this dude's survival is going to be that he slows down, or else he could very easily DIE. The statement above is the most damning of all... it is great that he is trying to learn to use rears, but goddamn man, digging out with them. Like I said before, this dude is begging for death. It is a good call for you to help him as much as you can, but how you gonna feel when he dies before you can teach him everything? (not that I am saying you should feel any guilt...just saying that even with any swooping instruction you may give him he is still making a WRONG choice at this moment in time.) This is a dude that would definitely fall into the "SCARY" category in the Canopy risk quotient section of the March parachutist. The concept of this still blows me away. Unreal! This guy could be one more or one less canopy fatality for 2004, he chooses which. jeff D-16906 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #39 March 30, 2004 more than likely he will get hurt under this canopy.. how bad he gets hurt is the question. Quote but how you gonna feel when he dies before you can teach him everything? (not that I am saying you should feel any guilt...just saying that even with any swooping instruction you may give him he is still making a WRONG choice at this moment in time.) well what else can you do? nothing. he is free to make his own choices. the only thing you can do is try to help.and if they are still going to jump the canopy. what would you do?..... he needs to be educated. hopefully he wont learn the hard way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #40 March 30, 2004 Other than the jumper used to jump a 120 Alpha I know nothing about how he used to fly his canopy. But you can tell a lot about how he flew it based on how he flys this one. Sorry but he's making some "basic" mistakes that would/could have been corrected under a much bigger wing. All I know is how he's flying what he has now. In response to : Quoteactualy skymonkey no. he jumped it for over a year at his original dz before he came to us. im not sure why nobody stopped him i waqsnt there. I think you may have a different person in mind. This canopy was brand new and the jumper said he had less than 10 jumps on the canopy but had just moved from an alpha 120. Sounds like you feel he is competent. Care to elaborate? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #41 March 30, 2004 QuoteIt is a good call for you to help him as much as you can, but how you gonna feel when he dies before you can teach him everything? (not that I am saying you should feel any guilt...just saying that even with any swooping instruction you may give him he is still making a WRONG choice at this moment in time.) Better than if I didn't do anything at all. The S&TA is aware, the instructors are aware, there is little more I can do than try and help him. At this point I'm certainly not giving him swooping advice, but I am trying to get basical survival stuff drilled into him. Until someone grounds him on that canopy there's nothing else I can do, besides, even if he was grounded, he'd probably just go to another dz and continue there - maybe with no guidence. How is that any better? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #42 March 30, 2004 QuoteUntil someone grounds him on that canopy there's nothing else I can do, besides, even if he was grounded, he'd probably just go to another dz and continue there - maybe with no guidence. How is that any better? yup this is true.. but ian... did you meet his wife? im assuming she was his wife.... she had a little kid with her... girl, boy/.... i dont remember..... i think if they come out again we can get to her......... if we get to her she will most definatly get to him.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ffejdraga 0 #43 March 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteUntil someone grounds him on that canopy there's nothing else I can do, besides, even if he was grounded, he'd probably just go to another dz and continue there - maybe with no guidence. How is that any better? yup this is true.. but ian... did you meet his wife? im assuming she was his wife.... she had a little kid with her... girl, boy/.... i dont remember..... i think if they come out again we can get to her......... if we get to her she will most definatly get to him.... how tragic this could become, oh so easily.... jeff D-16906 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #44 March 30, 2004 QuoteQuote*** Jeff, also try working on accuracy. This weekend will be a good chance at Lodi to see what the canopy traffic is like when we do small formation 36 ways. Make sure someone is watching you also when doing your rear riser landings and has the sense to call for medical attention should you need it? Hey, I am just following the list..... If something happens just kick me to the side out of everyone's way, it'll heal eventually. If something really bad happens, just push me to the side, cover me with a little dirt , give my rig to a needy student and call it good. BTW, I am willing the remainder of my jump tickets to you, if you want them. Quote I'll also print out this thread and keep it just incase to let your family know everyone (including me) has suggested you just jump more and get some more "experience" before jumping something too small for your experience level. Slow down and smell the grass, dont eat it..... Be safe.www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #45 March 30, 2004 Quotebut ian... did you meet his wife? im assuming she was his wife.... she had a little kid with her... girl, boy/.... i dont remember..... i think if they come out again we can get to her......... You know man, I was thinking about that, and you're 100% correct. She's very defensive of him though as she got quite angry at some comments ppl made (didn't hear them it was when we were with him) so we'd have to approach with caution. But given the right pace I bet we could turn her. Good call. Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #46 March 30, 2004 QuoteQuotebut ian... did you meet his wife? im assuming she was his wife.... she had a little kid with her... girl, boy/.... i dont remember..... i think if they come out again we can get to her......... You know man, I was thinking about that, and you're 100% correct. She's very defensive of him though as she got quite angry at some comments ppl made (didn't hear them it was when we were with him) so we'd have to approach with caution. But given the right pace I bet we could turn her. Good call. Blue ones, Ian ya but they were all newbies.... and no respect was used when they were talking.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tattoojeff 0 #47 March 30, 2004 im getting a little confused. ill try to clearify. i was relating a similar situation at my dz to yours. thats who i was refering to when i replied to skymonkey. as far as the jumper youve posted about i just wanted to get some background on his expierience as a performance pilot and how drastic of a downsize he made buying his x-braced. im not in the posistion to say if hes competent or not since ive never seen him fly a canopy. however i would bet all my money he is NOT! theres nothing he can learn under a x-braced sub 100 that he couldnt have learned under a more forgiving canopy. i pray he doesnt have to learn this the hard way. watching someone hook it in is one of the most horribly violent things ive ever seen and i hope i never have to see it again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #48 March 30, 2004 QuoteBut I am starting to be around this sport long enough to see how risky it is and that some people take high performance canopy flight to lightly (as I'm sure I have in the past). OMG....He is growing up! Ever think you would think that way? QuoteI am by no means a canopy nazi. Give it a few more years. Should we save you a CN number? HeHe Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #49 March 30, 2004 QuoteGive it a few more years. Should we save you a CN number? SkyBytch CN#1 PhreeZone CN#2 Ron CN#3 Numbers are still open for those who want them. As for the low experience situations how should it be handled if the person just does not want to listen to more experienced/better pilots?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #50 March 30, 2004 QuoteAs for the low experience situations how should it be handled if the person just does not want to listen to more experienced/better pilots? Regulation."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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ianmdrennan 2 #45 March 30, 2004 Quotebut ian... did you meet his wife? im assuming she was his wife.... she had a little kid with her... girl, boy/.... i dont remember..... i think if they come out again we can get to her......... You know man, I was thinking about that, and you're 100% correct. She's very defensive of him though as she got quite angry at some comments ppl made (didn't hear them it was when we were with him) so we'd have to approach with caution. But given the right pace I bet we could turn her. Good call. Blue ones, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #46 March 30, 2004 QuoteQuotebut ian... did you meet his wife? im assuming she was his wife.... she had a little kid with her... girl, boy/.... i dont remember..... i think if they come out again we can get to her......... You know man, I was thinking about that, and you're 100% correct. She's very defensive of him though as she got quite angry at some comments ppl made (didn't hear them it was when we were with him) so we'd have to approach with caution. But given the right pace I bet we could turn her. Good call. Blue ones, Ian ya but they were all newbies.... and no respect was used when they were talking.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tattoojeff 0 #47 March 30, 2004 im getting a little confused. ill try to clearify. i was relating a similar situation at my dz to yours. thats who i was refering to when i replied to skymonkey. as far as the jumper youve posted about i just wanted to get some background on his expierience as a performance pilot and how drastic of a downsize he made buying his x-braced. im not in the posistion to say if hes competent or not since ive never seen him fly a canopy. however i would bet all my money he is NOT! theres nothing he can learn under a x-braced sub 100 that he couldnt have learned under a more forgiving canopy. i pray he doesnt have to learn this the hard way. watching someone hook it in is one of the most horribly violent things ive ever seen and i hope i never have to see it again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 March 30, 2004 QuoteBut I am starting to be around this sport long enough to see how risky it is and that some people take high performance canopy flight to lightly (as I'm sure I have in the past). OMG....He is growing up! Ever think you would think that way? QuoteI am by no means a canopy nazi. Give it a few more years. Should we save you a CN number? HeHe Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #49 March 30, 2004 QuoteGive it a few more years. Should we save you a CN number? SkyBytch CN#1 PhreeZone CN#2 Ron CN#3 Numbers are still open for those who want them. As for the low experience situations how should it be handled if the person just does not want to listen to more experienced/better pilots?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #50 March 30, 2004 QuoteAs for the low experience situations how should it be handled if the person just does not want to listen to more experienced/better pilots? Regulation."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
