The111 1 #51 March 30, 2004 Should the regulation be based on jump numbers or demonstratable skills? I'm not advocating the decision, but one guy in this thread who received some criticism for his canopy choice said that he *could* do all the things on billvon's checklist. Myself, if I could do all those things on my current canopy, I'd quickly downsize, but since I can't/haven't, I won't just yet. Is it possible that some of these people who claim to be "ahead of the curve" can prove it? If they do prove that with 200 jumps they can complete billvon's list on a 1.5 loaded elliptical, can they move on to the next step without criticism? Myself, I'm way behind the learning curve on canopies and I wouldn't mind regulation of any type, as I'm already restricting myself pretty strongly. But for those prodigies out there (if they do exist), a merit based (rather than jump number based) regulation system seems most fair. Only downside is the amount of effort (and $$$) it would take to enforce those types of regulations. I.e. there would need to be an examiner/observer to watch the jumper demonstrate all those canopy skills each time he wants to downsize. Maybe a jump number regulation could be put in place (cheap, mostly effective), but for those who do feel ahead of the curve, they can pay out of their own pocket for an examiner who can rate them for downsizing early.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stateofnature 0 #52 March 30, 2004 This should be mentioned. Everyone cares too much. I say fuck um. You won't stop a person taking that 'extra' line of coke, or bumping up to a 1200cc, 3 days after getting their motorcycle permit. Preach and preach all you want, these people can't be motovated to go back...it's human nature bro! The best you can do is keep your camcorder and stills ready, you may make some money with Real TV or rotten.com!!! (oh, and let your jumper be aware of the true meaning of your digital setup in the landing area...thats honesty in it's greatest light...still won't change them though) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #53 March 30, 2004 QuoteShould the regulation be based on jump numbers or demonstratable skills? Demonstratable skills!!! In fact guys like Ron and Derek have always said that they didn't have a problem with a newer jumper jumping a high performance canopy, just as long as they first seek advanced canopy control instruction and then are able to demonstrate the appropriate canopy control skills on larger canopies first. I can and often do everything on BillVon's list on virtually every jump I do, but that doesn't mean I feel that I am ready to downsize as I know I have not mastered my current wing yet. I've stood up something like 208 of 210 landings on my Crossfire2 canopy. But it's the two crashes (ironically they both happened within the last six weeks) which stand out in my memory and we haven't even hit the hot high density altitude months yet. Both crashes are explainable and neither one was the type to make you think I was going to the hospital. But I still made mistakes on those two crashes and one only wonders what would have happened if I was on a sub-100 foot x-braced canopy when I made those mistakes. Swooping is fun, but the margin for error is slim and permanent consequences can result from an ever so small mistake. Dang maybe I should apply for that CN #. Nah ... not yet. I still have some rebel blood in me. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #54 March 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteAs for the low experience situations how should it be handled if the person just does not want to listen to more experienced/better pilots? Regulation. If the regulation is in some way skills based then I guess I'd say ok. I know I'm so new that I don't even have a right to an opinion but in my point of view arbitrary jumps numbers are simply bullshit. People do learn at different rates. To deny this is to claim that all humans are the same. Of course there should be a natural progression but for some this progression may be quicker than others. We've all heard from people who have thousands of jumps and haven't highly loaded or jumped crossbrace, it just isn't there bag baby. That doesn't mean it's not anybody's bag, just not theirs. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #55 March 30, 2004 QuoteNumbers are still open for those who want them. Yes but just ask Rev Jim, I'm C&C Nazi #1 (Canopy & Camera) ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #56 March 30, 2004 QuoteIf the regulation is in some way skills based then I guess I'd say ok Every regulation I supported was both. There was a jump number to wingload rule for those that didn't want to try and exceed the "norm". Not everyone wants to push it, and lets face it jump numbers equals the number of times you have landed a canopy. The one I used was borrowed from Brian Germain, and I like it. 100 jumps 1.1 MAX 200 jumps 1.2 MAX 300 jumps 1.3 MAX ect. It could go to the "D", or all the way to 1,000 jumps...I personally like the 1,000 jumps. This chart IS being used at some DZ's already..And others have even MORE restrictive ones. However if you wanted to push it some...Thats cool there would be a PRACTICAL test you had to pass. I didn't like just having a canopy control course since it really is about being able to do it...not just know how to do it. If it was just knowledge...We would be able to just teach the FJC and then put people on freefall. The test I liked was a test that could be given by an S&TA or I. It was so simple in standards that a whuffo could understand it. The "PRO rating" test. If you can take your current canopy and land 10 times out of 10 standing in a 30 foot circle. Then you have the ability to fly that canopy fairly well. If you can't, then it is clear you still have more to learn on that canopy. Its not an easy test, but if you are "Advanced" and ready to move to a higher wingload...Then you should be able to do it. If not then you still have more to learn under that canopy. With BOTH of these you have a limit on wingload that raises with experience And that can be exceeded if you pass a PRACTICAL test. It is the best of both worlds. Natural progression AND the possibility to test out to a higher level. QuoteI know I'm so new that I don't even have a right to an opinion No, you have the right to an opinion, but when it comes to skydiving it weighs less than a person with more experience. Quote in my point of view arbitrary jumps numbers are simply bullshit Well, in my opinon while jump numbers are not a perfect way of judging skill...It is 99% of the time fairly accurate. We already use them now. 500 jumps to get a Tandem I. 100 Jumps for the old SL JM. Ect.... The bonus of my plan was if you really were better than your jump #'s...Then you could PROVE it and move ahead as fast as you can PROVE it. QuotePeople do learn at different rates. To deny this is to claim that all humans are the same. Of course there should be a natural progression but for some this progression may be quicker than others. So if they ARE better...then they can PROVE it and move on. But there IS a normal progression model. MOST people do fit in that model. If you are really better, then it should be easy to prove it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #57 March 30, 2004 >Should the regulation be based on jump numbers or demonstratable skills? Both. We sent a letter to parachutist a while back that outlined our plan for a canopy control rating that included: -wing loading limits based on license level (A-D) -a canopy coach rating for canopy instructors -a way to "test out" of the requirements by demonstrating proficiency in front of an instructor -a way to get out of the requirements by taking a canopy control course Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #58 March 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteAs for the low experience situations how should it be handled if the person just does not want to listen to more experienced/better pilots? Regulation. im one who is extreamly all for self regulation. that is what uspa is based on. this regulation needs to come from the d.z's themself. wich may take a person or two dying before it happens. after watching this guy jump this canopy this weekend it is very obvious he is going to get hurt. especially when the hot summer humid air with 3500 ft density alt is here. but there really isnt much you can do other than educate them and hope they dont kill themselves.. but i bet you he will break somthing before he learns. i would love to see this guy go ahead and relize he needs a larger wing while he gains more experiance. but if he doesnt listen he will learn one way or another. hopefully not the hard way. if you tell him he cant jump. he is just going to go somwhere else. hopefully they wont let him jump. but you know someone will. so he must be educated. although regulation would help here it would give us somthing to lean on and force this person to do what we want, i still dont agree with the uspa stepping in with a regulation, maybee a B.S.R. or somthing like that. but this sort of thing needs to be self regulated, just like uspa is. but then again this is my opinion... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #59 March 31, 2004 Quote It's tough to hold back, and no-one wants to (I didn't) Do as I say, not as I do? Just to be the devils advocate here - a young jumper sees that you didn't hold back, survived and can now swoop like nobodies business- why can't he/she do the same? Just curious... Hope the south is treating you well! JumpScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #60 March 31, 2004 >this regulation needs to come from the d.z's themself. That's what's happening now. But consider if you really want this: Dropzone A has the Brian Germain loading restrictions. Dropzone B says no small canopies or ellipticals before 500 jumps, and they include all ellipticals (and the Spectre is elliptical.) Dropzone C says that NO ONE can jump over a 1.2 to 1 until they take that dropzone's canopy control course. Dropzone D has no official restrictions but you have to know the DZO to jump a small canopy. Dropzone E says no loadings over 1.2 to 1 before 500 jumps unless you take a canopy control course, but they don't recognize the course that dropzone C does. Is that better than a uniform USPA regulation? Would you really buy 3 different canopies so you were always legal at all the DZ's? Or I suppose you could buy a Triathalon 160 and always be allowed to jump. I don't think that's progress though. >but there really isnt much you can do other than educate them and > hope they dont kill themselves. You can ground them. I've only done it a few times in my career, but I'm pretty sure it saved jumpers from at least serious injury. >if you tell him he cant jump. he is just going to go somwhere else. Not if every USPA drop zone tells him the same thing. The reason we don't have people with 2 jumps dying when they try to do RW is that 99% of the DZ's out there won't let someone with 2 jumps do RW. >but you know someone will. so he must be educated. I agree 100%. There are some people who will refuse education unless it's required. > i still dont agree with the uspa stepping in with a regulation, maybee > a B.S.R. or somthing like that . . . That's all we were asking for. A uniform BSR so every DZ out there can at least start out with the same rules and guidelines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #61 March 31, 2004 Quote>this regulation needs to come from the d.z's themself. That's what's happening now. But consider if you really want this: Dropzone A has the Brian Germain loading restrictions. Dropzone B says no small canopies or ellipticals before 500 jumps, and they include all ellipticals (and the Spectre is elliptical.) Dropzone C says that NO ONE can jump over a 1.2 to 1 until they take that dropzone's canopy control course. Dropzone D has no official restrictions but you have to know the DZO to jump a small canopy. Dropzone E says no loadings over 1.2 to 1 before 500 jumps unless you take a canopy control course, but they don't recognize the course that dropzone C does. Is that better than a uniform USPA regulation? Would you really buy 3 different canopies so you were always legal at all the DZ's? Or I suppose you could buy a Triathalon 160 and always be allowed to jump. I don't think that's progress though. well i can see this happening already. not quite to that extent but it is there.... im not here offering a soloution. i just dont like somone telling me what i can and cant do.... but somthing does have to be done. i still stand by the fact that i beleive in self regulation. only the strong survive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #62 March 31, 2004 QuoteDo as I say, not as I do? Just to be the devils advocate here - a young jumper sees that you didn't hold back, survived and can now swoop like nobodies business- Because I was lucky enough to *only* crush my vertabra. My back hurts all day, every day. It's only going to get worse as I get older, yeah it could have been much worse - should have been - but it could have been a lot better. I was warned too, and I didn't listen. There's no doubt in my mind that I'm one of the lucky ones. Quotecan now swoop like nobodies business Why thanks man How things out in Eloy? Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #63 March 31, 2004 QuoteNot if every USPA drop zone tells him the same thing. The reason we don't have people with 2 jumps dying when they try to do RW is that 99% of the DZ's out there won't let someone with 2 jumps do RW. Yep, but I think we can all agree that dz's policing canopies is not nearly as good as the other freefall aspects of our sport. I'm sure it'll change in time, but right now most turn a blind eye, or don't know any better. I'm not sure which. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ffejdraga 0 #64 March 31, 2004 Quote after watching this guy jump this canopy this weekend it is very obvious he is going to get hurt. especially when the hot summer humid air with 3500 ft density alt is here. The next time you guys see him, tell him to log in here, and point him to this three page thread that says in a nutshell "Dude, there is a very high likelyhood you are going to DIE" and see if that maybe would drive the point home to him. jeff D-16906 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #65 March 31, 2004 QuoteThe next time you guys see him, tell him to log in here, and point him to this three page thread that says in a nutshell "Dude, there is a very high likelyhood you are going to DIE" and see if that maybe would drive the point home to him. *** Unfortunately reading this thread won't help either I bet....www.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #66 March 31, 2004 Quoteim one who is extreamly all for self regulation. that is what uspa is based on. REALLY?!!??!!?!?! USPA is based on self regulation? Go take a buddy out to a DZ and try just taking him on a freefall jump without training, an AAD, RSL or a helmet. Without rated instructors. And try to let him jump in winds above 20 MPH. Start pulling at 1300 feet. Try to do Demos without a PRO rating. Start teaching without an I rating. Wingloading limits would be in this same spirit. Quoteafter watching this guy jump this canopy this weekend it is very obvious he is going to get hurt. especially when the hot summer humid air with 3500 ft density alt is here. but there really isnt much you can do other than educate them and hope they dont kill themselves Ground him. Sure he may go someplace else...But atleast he will not get blood on your DZ. Quoteso he must be educated. although regulation would help here it would give us somthing to lean on and force this person to do what we want, Yep and if he really is gifted...Then he could pass a test and prove it. Then he would be allowed to go as fast as jis skills and experience will let him...Not go as fast as his checkbook will let him."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #67 March 31, 2004 I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I think we need to take it upon all of ourselves to set a good example as upjumpers. When a student walks onto the DZ and begins his training, his attitudes toward the sport are formed by those around him at this time. If he sees people downsizing very carefully and seeking canopy control coaching, we hope he can pick up some of these attitudes. I'm personally sick of people argueing about this. We can start to take the problem into our own hands today... Edited to add: Sorry that last sentence came across condescending. What I mean is that we can just take action about this today by setting a good example ourselves...=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,070 #68 March 31, 2004 > I'm sure it'll change in time, but right now most turn a blind eye, > or don't know any better. I'm not sure which. I think it's both. A BSR would help educate both DZO's and jumpers as to canopy loading risks and required education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #69 March 31, 2004 QuoteEdited to add: Sorry that last sentence came across condescending. What I mean is that we can just take action about this today by setting a good example ourselves... i dont think anyone is arguing this point. it is just how to go about solving it. in my opinion he doesnt need to be jumping that canopy. but i dont think grounding him is going to stop him... so we will look into other ways to get him to stop... although it would help keep the dz clean from blood.... but that is not first priority. priority is to get him under a safe canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sducoach 0 #70 April 1, 2004 Come on. Don't start that S&TA grounding anybody thing again.............. S&TA's cannot ground anyone, only DZOs can. Don't start that "if you have a good relationship with the DZO you can Mr. S&TA". Fact is, it is the DZOs decision and his only. Learn the facts folks, please.James 4:8 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #71 April 1, 2004 ***(this is after he biffed himself in stalling the canopy on rears after trying to dig out of a low turn) *** Holy shit, this dude was landing rears?! That really gets my attention. Being someone who's canopy choice could easily be considered assinine by those who don't know me, I was giving this guy the benefit of the doubt, but this really gets my attention. He truly is biting off more than he can chew, and does not understand how easily he can hospitalize himself. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orbitjunkie 0 #72 April 1, 2004 I have to agree with Bill, the fact is that swooping and flying smaller canopies is "cool" and everyone wants to look cool. But it is a dangerous trend, and I hate to say it but I see it mostly in the younger age groups.I started skydiving at 36 so by then knew I was not invincible. I am a low timer myself with 260 jumps and jump a semi elip at 1:1 and am still capable of making a mistake and getting a good whack. I am not a slow learner either, at least average or better. Yet I see alot of jumpers with less jumps than me flying smaller canopies, and trying high performance stuff when they have not mastered all of the basics. I have more than 200 jumps on my canopy and am just now really learning how to max it out and still land safely ( and still whack ocassionally) the last 50 or so jumps I have been litterly trying to wear my canopy out and have figured out almost all of it's characteristics and extremes. Flat turns, riser dives, brakes the whole nine yards..this is what we (you guys) should be teaching us to master before we get on something that a comman mistake..which we all make..becomes lethal Craig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #73 April 1, 2004 QuoteCome on. Don't start that S&TA grounding anybody thing again.............. S&TA's cannot ground anyone, only DZOs can. Don't start that "if you have a good relationship with the DZO you can Mr. S&TA". Fact is, it is the DZOs decision and his only. Learn the facts folks, please. Who can and can't ground who is not the point of this discussion. Keep on topic please, or start a new thread to discuss your thoughts on this. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #74 April 1, 2004 QuoteI am not a slow learner either, at least average or better. No offense , but almost everyone thinks they are better than average. QuoteI have more than 200 jumps on my canopy and am just now really learning how to max it out and still land safely Again, no offense ...You only think you can max out that canopy...I have almost 2,000 on my canopy and am still learning on it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #75 April 1, 2004 Not arguing againt your point particularly - its more a question, but would it not be true that it is going to take a lot longer to max out a canopy like yours than it is to max out something more docile and lightly loaded? Kind of like the difference between a van and a formula 1 car?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
