Ron 10 #26 February 19, 2003 And if I remember correctly.... I had a shit hot jump on that one...And several less experienced jumpers bought me beer for the night brief. Sometimes I miss Raeford. Not that I can comment on any actions that might, or might not have been taken at said DZ, or at anytime or place.Ron "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #27 February 19, 2003 Well, in the 205 at 12,500, going around, I could see the sun, but it was pretty damn dark on the ground when i landed. Guess I can't answer this poll either way. It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coconutmonkey 0 #28 February 19, 2003 Yes, but it most definitely wasn't a double falcon-eagle, if it ever occured....Hearts & Minds 2 to the Heart- 1 to the Mind- Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 February 19, 2003 This would be exactly what I am talking about. this would be a yes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coconutmonkey 0 #30 February 19, 2003 Senator, I do not recall. Senator, I have no recollection.Senator, the video..er.. video... I can explain.... Hearts & Minds 2 to the Heart- 1 to the Mind- Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #31 February 19, 2003 QuoteOK....So with the big "Night jump debate" that always goes on here, and everywhere else... Have you ever been on an accidental night jump? That is a jump that took off with daylight, but you ended up landing in darkness? It could have required someone to turn on headlights....Or hanger lights.... For me, Yes several times. About 12 or so accidental night jumps. Ron A "D" license is not a requirement for manifesting on a sunset load, so any argument that uses "accidental" night landings from sunset loads as a justification for night jumps for the "D" is simply baloney.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 February 19, 2003 QuoteA "D" license is not a requirement for manifesting on a sunset load, so any argument that uses "accidental" night landings from sunset loads as a justification for night jumps for the "D" is simply baloney. Nope, because the TRAINING, and the EXPERIENCE that can be gained BY DOING THEM...can help if you are in that position. Why does the FAA make it so you have to be current at NIGHT to take passengers if you are current during the day? Because it is different. Training only helps teach...you need to DO them to know you can, and to know what can happen. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #33 February 19, 2003 QuoteQuoteA "D" license is not a requirement for manifesting on a sunset load, so any argument that uses "accidental" night landings from sunset loads as a justification for night jumps for the "D" is simply baloney. Nope, because the TRAINING, and the EXPERIENCE that can be gained BY DOING THEM...can help if you are in that position. Why does the FAA make it so you have to be current at NIGHT to take passengers if you are current during the day? Because it is different. Training only helps teach...you need to DO them to know you can, and to know what can happen. Ron Re-read what I wrote. You may make sunset loads with an "A" license, so how does a night jump requirement for a "D" affect the safety of sunset (or after sunset) loads? The load could be all folks with "A" licenses who aren't allowed to make night jumps. I'm not denying that training helps, just pointing out a fallacy in your logic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #34 February 19, 2003 >so any argument that uses "accidental" night landings from sunset >loads as a justification for night jumps for the "D" is simply baloney. I think there's an important difference between theory and reality here. In theory, no one jumps a canopy they don't want to jump, no one jumps from a plane they don't want to jump from, no one jumps at a time they don't want to, and no one has to take a bad spot if they don't want to. In reality, you don't end up jumping a canopy you don't want to, because the 'default' is that you have the canopy you want in your container - it takes an action to remove it and replace it with a new canopy. In reality, you don't end up jumping from a plane you don't want to, because you have to physically get in the plane before you can jump from it. In reality, people DO jump after sunset, in the real world of skydiving. It does not require any additional action, just an ATC delay is sufficient. To avoid it does require a judgement call and unusual action, landing with the plane. Hence many people end up jumping near or after sunset. Better training for that eventuality will help avoid injuries. In reality, people DO get bad spots, in the real world of skydiving, because they make a judgement call that can be wrong. Requiring people to demonstrate accuracy landings to get new licenses can help keep them alive during off-DZ landings that can result from bad spots. It's all well and good to say "you should never get out of the plane if it's dark!" The reality is that it happens, pretty often. I would rather plan the licensing scheme around what happens rather than around a good theory that doesn't hold up in the real world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cgross 1 #35 February 19, 2003 I have to say, as a student, I came close to a past sunset landing. At altitude the sun was up, but on the ground it was set. THe Almanac also confirmed it was set!!! The think I noticed about sunset jumps is, the sun is Fucking bright when it is directly in front of you falling though the sky. So much for keeping my heading. I just turned 90 degrees away from that big orangy glowing ball of light!!!!! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JYorkster 0 #36 February 19, 2003 I actually look before I get out of the airplane. I've never 'accidentally' fallen out to the airplane. Sooooo, I guess I have to say that I've never had and accidental night jump. Sure I've landed when it was darker than it was when I took off, but I knew that getting out of the plane. No one EVER makes an accidental night jump. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #37 February 20, 2003 Quote Sure I've landed when it was darker than it was when I took off, but I knew that getting out of the plane. No one EVER makes an accidental night jump. Most skydivers know how many miles it is from where they park their car at home, to where they park at the DZ. Most skydivers can tell you what the weather forecast is for the next two weekends. Just as much, most skydivers can tell you when sunrise and sunset is so they know just how many jumps they can squeeze in a day. More than once I have climbed into an airplane at many DZ's a couple minutes after shadows start to crawl across the ground (knowing full well it was sunset). However, I didn't do this until I had two "official" night jumps (per USPA) under my belt. I have over a dozen official night jumps now, and countless unofficial ones. Everything changes while jumping at night and I wouldn't suggest anyone that hasn't been properly trained and briefed on the safety procedures for dark flight attempt one of these "accidental" night jumps. (how many newbies know what moon shadow is?) BTW - I LOVE night jumps - but landing off in the dark is a very scary adventure. I've only had to do it once, and hope it doesn't happen again anytime soon. I knew I was landing off and picked a field I knew fairly well. I nearly landed on a fence I KNEW wasn't there in the morning because I drove past that spot on my way in to the dz, but it sure the hell was there that night and the only thing that saved me was the extra flare in my Stiletto. I was just lucky they didn't decide to put up a new power line in that field that day as well._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marcandalysse 0 #38 February 20, 2003 how about starting out in late afternoon sun, diving out in bright sun, and landing in a darkening drizzle? "The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #39 February 20, 2003 Quote I actually look before I get out of the airplane. I've never 'accidentally' fallen out to the airplane. ... No one EVER makes an accidental night jump. Well I did, once. Sorta. Was on the sunset load. Sun was still up, sorta. Plenty of light. Fell through a thin layer of industrial haze at about 4000 ft. Pulled. Man it was dark all of a sudden! I'm pretty much nightblind. Not so much at night but twilight is esp. hard. This landing was hard.... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #40 February 20, 2003 Quote>so any argument that uses "accidental" night landings from sunset >loads as a justification for night jumps for the "D" is simply baloney. I think there's an important difference between theory and reality here. In theory, no one jumps a canopy they don't want to jump, no one jumps from a plane they don't want to jump from, no one jumps at a time they don't want to, and no one has to take a bad spot if they don't want to. In reality, you don't end up jumping a canopy you don't want to, because the 'default' is that you have the canopy you want in your container - it takes an action to remove it and replace it with a new canopy. In reality, you don't end up jumping from a plane you don't want to, because you have to physically get in the plane before you can jump from it. In reality, people DO jump after sunset, in the real world of skydiving. It does not require any additional action, just an ATC delay is sufficient. To avoid it does require a judgement call and unusual action, landing with the plane. Hence many people end up jumping near or after sunset. Better training for that eventuality will help avoid injuries. In reality, people DO get bad spots, in the real world of skydiving, because they make a judgement call that can be wrong. Requiring people to demonstrate accuracy landings to get new licenses can help keep them alive during off-DZ landings that can result from bad spots. It's all well and good to say "you should never get out of the plane if it's dark!" The reality is that it happens, pretty often. I would rather plan the licensing scheme around what happens rather than around a good theory that doesn't hold up in the real world. In that case, night jump training and experience should be a requirement for "A" licenses, not "D", OR you restrict sunset loads to only those with night jump experience. Saying that the night jump requirement for the "D" is for safety on sunset loads makes no sense if you allow people without "D" licenses on those loads, including pre-A solo jumpers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #41 February 20, 2003 Well yes it makes sense.... A person with a A or less is still just trying to survive. A night jump would waste them...they would have a low probability of success. Besides night jumps DO make dusk jumps safer..... Debate that. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JYorkster 0 #42 February 20, 2003 Ok, I guess it's possible, but I bet it won't happen to you again, right? Now you know to look for things like that. When making a 'sunset' jump, jumpers need to take into consideration that just because the sun looks like it hasn't quite dipped over the horizon from 13,500 ft, that doesn't mean it is still visible on the ground. I guess the word 'accident' is what I have a problem with on this poll. It seems like another attempt to shirk from taking personal responsibility for something over which we have total control. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #43 February 20, 2003 >In that case, night jump training and experience should be a > requirement for "A" licenses, not "D", OR you restrict sunset loads to > only those with night jump experience. I both agree and disagree. You need a certain amount of experience to be able to pull off a night jump; there's a lot that goes into it that someone with 25 jumps doesn't have yet. They need more experience before they can get the advanced training. I would be OK with restricting risky sunset loads to D licenses or higher; such things are done at many DZ's (i.e. wind, sunlight or cloud conditions mean D licenses or higher, or B licenses or higher, or 200+ jumps or whatever.) Most of the time this would work; occasionally it would not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #44 February 20, 2003 QuoteWell yes it makes sense.... A person with a A or less is still just trying to survive. A night jump would waste them...they would have a low probability of success. Besides night jumps DO make dusk jumps safer..... Debate that. Ron Agreed - but you don't restrict dusk jumps to "D" licensees only, do you? That person with 25 jumps may well be on a sunset load that turns into a dusk jump, there is no rule against it. So the night jumps for "D" rule does nothing to protect those in most need of protection. The arguments in favor of the rule simply don't hold water.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #45 February 21, 2003 How about this argument: If you want the highest License that the USPA has...You have to do what the USPA says to get it. If I could not land my airplane at night...The FAA would not give me a license. If I didn't have a cutaway I could not get a Strong Tandem rating. If my video person does not get my teams exit I don't get the point. Life is not fair. But instead of bitching, and trying to get the rules changed to fit them, these people could just do the jumps, or be happy with having a C forever.... Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #46 February 21, 2003 I had what might be considered an accidental night jump...late 70's. We had done a demo into a semi-pro baseball game in Davenport, Ia. The demo itself was a night jump... after finishing at the park we got a ride to the airport (er...ah..bar) and the loaded back into the plane (182) for the hour flight to our club DZ...2100ft of east west grass...due to high cross winds...low fuel after several go-arounds the pilot ordered the jumpers out over a dark cornfield 2miles upwind of the runway... Now the really dumb / scarry part... NONE OF US HAD PACKED OUR MAINS!!! ...I found myself in freefall, at night, exiting over an area I didn't know, in high winds, on a 23 foot Tri-Con (round)... The list of things I learned from that expierance could fill volumes! needless to say I will never be caught in a situation like that again! I DO have well over 200 night jumps since then... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #47 February 21, 2003 QuoteHow about this argument: If you want the highest License that the USPA has...You have to do what the USPA says to get it. If I could not land my airplane at night...The FAA would not give me a license. If I didn't have a cutaway I could not get a Strong Tandem rating. If my video person does not get my teams exit I don't get the point. Life is not fair. But instead of bitching, and trying to get the rules changed to fit them, these people could just do the jumps, or be happy with having a C forever.... Ron I take it that your reply means you concede that there is no logic behind the requirement, it's just because "that's the way it is, take it or leave it". PS I have a "D", and did the night jumps.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 February 21, 2003 QuoteI take it that your reply means you concede that there is no logic behind the requirement, it's just because "that's the way it is, take it or leave it". Logic as in what? That it will never happen, and there is no need for the requirement? Well I think this poll has shown that there are times that people WILL exit the aircraft and land in what many would consider to be "Night" conditions even if it is not the FAA's definition of night. I would rather have people have some level of experience before it happens on "Accident" And that you need to have some level of experiance before you do a night jump. That is why we don't make students do it. No,it will not stop people from getting on the "Accidental" or unplanned night jumps. I think it is needed. Some don't see the need for "hood" flying for a private pilot. I only fly on nice days, so why should I have any Instrument training? But it is required, so I did it. I did not bitch about it, and try to get around it. The fact is it is required...just do it, or keep your "C". If you must get a "D" apply for the restricted "D". There are paths to take other than just bitching, and trying to get the rule changed. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #49 February 21, 2003 Did I miss something? I did see the letter in Parachutist about this... and wondered then as now, what is the big deal with doing night jumps / water jumps ? As with many things in skydiving...once you've honestly reached that level of competency...it's truely no longer an issue. I see the same thing with people wanting to slide a bit on the "PRO" requirements... We're for the most part a self-governing body...if someone isn't comfortable with jumping at night --don't ever put yourself in a position that may require you to do so. If one wants to be considered an 'expert' skydiver... complete the requirements...you will know when you really qualify. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakbrother 0 #50 February 21, 2003 Quote Quote I take it that your reply means you concede that there is no logic behind the requirement, it's just because "that's the way it is, take it or leave it". Logic as in what? That it will never happen, and there is no need for the requirement? Well I think this poll has shown that there are times that people WILL exit the aircraft and land in what many would consider to be "Night" conditions even if it is not the FAA's definition of night. I would rather have people have some level of experience before it happens on "Accident" You don't read what I write. I never claimed that experience was not valuable, simply that making the night jump a requirement for a "D" was an illogical way to do it, since it doesn't address the problems of people with only A thru C licenses that get on sunset loads. Quote And that you need to have some level of experiance before you do a night jump. That is why we don't make students do it. No,it will not stop people from getting on the "Accidental" or unplanned night jumps. I think it is needed. Some don't see the need for "hood" flying for a private pilot. I only fly on nice days, so why should I have any Instrument training? But it is required, so I did it. I did not bitch about it, and try to get around it. BUT - the hood requirement is required for the private license - the FIRST license. The night jump for "D" is more like only requiring hood experience for ATP's, on the grounds that private pilots might accidentally fly into clouds. (I am a PP SEL, Intrument, glider). Quote The fact is it is required...just do it, or keep your "C". If you must get a "D" apply for the restricted "D". You don't read what I write, do you. I already have a "D" (unrestricted). I enjoyed the night jumps. Didn't think they had any relevance beyond that, though. Quote There are paths to take other than just bitching, and trying to get the rule changed. Ron But bitching is more fun.. . www.freak-brother.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
