in a no wind situation, FOLLOW the set flight path!

[TribalTalon 0]

today at SDH there was a canopy collision due to one jumper going on a north bound swoop while another was going south on his swoop, when everybody was supposed to be landing to the south. there could have very easily been a fatality, and i am EXTREMELY glad that there wasnt, because they were both good friends of mine. if your dropzone does not have rules pertaining to where all jumpers should land in a no wind situation, please try to get a set landing pattern, because these canopy collisions DO hurt, and can very easily kill. (btw both ended up alright, one had a dislocated shoulder) i wasnt going to post at all about this, but after getting requests from people, i decided that i should post this in the safety forum to remind everybody that following a landing pattern is not just for show, its for the safety of your ass, and for everyone else in the sky around you.

[riggerrob 643]

Good advice.
Now, if your DZ already has a set landing pattern (i.e. land in the same direction as the first guy) and someone lands opposite to the rest of his load, how do you enforce the landing pattern?

[TribalTalon 0]

you bust his ass. after all, its purely a safety reason. there's no benefit to landing in the opposite direction that everybody else is if there's no wind at all..

if somebody decides not to pull, does that mean that everybody should follow his lead?

BTW, at our dz, it is specifically noted that in a No Wind situation, that ALL jumpers will land to the south. its not land like the first guy does. Thats why i was saying, if a dz doesnt have that rule, it might be a good idea to set something like that up where they tell everybody in a no wind situation to land to the south, or whatever direction would work best at that particular dz.



NOW, all that having been said, i'd like to add that the guy that landed to the north in this incident noted that he saw streamers indicating that the wind was coming from the north, so he decided to make his landing based on that. BUT, the wind sock was not moving. From what i heard, if a situation like that was to happen again, the best thing to do would be to observe the wind sock, and if its slack, or if everybody else is already landing to the south, do as they do. It gets a little iffy once you really start trying to lock things down, but i guess you just have to rely on common sense.
now, i'd like to just add a little disclaimer, by NO means do i think i know it all, in fact i wasnt even going to post anything at all about this until some people asked me to so that maybe other people could learn from this mistake.

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

Good advice.
Now, if your DZ already has a set landing pattern (i.e. land in the same direction as the first guy) and someone lands opposite to the rest of his load, how do you enforce the landing pattern?

This did happen # 1 and #2 in the landing sequence. Very faint winds, both locals, both swooped it in going the opposite direction. Something told me to take it to the big circular student landing area and work on carving as I was #3 and I wasn't the only one to skip the main area as a result. Didn't matter Dan B.C. called the entire load over and said when that is ( confusion of landing direction ) going on for the rest of us to just take it off the landing area.

[flyingarab 0]

The terms "no wind" and "set landing patterns" can be very misleading from what I found out. After this jump was over and my shoulder was popped back into place, the other jumper, myself, the S and TA, other people on the load, and various up jumpers all gathered around to discuss this landing. Unfortunately, the person that posted this initial thread, was not involved in the discussion, and was not able to get all the information accurate before he posted this article. For the sake of actually trying to help others in the same situation, I am going to post the information that was discussed in our briefing afterwards.

The rule of thumb when landing is that the first person usually sets the landing pattern for the rest of the jumpers. (this is a good safe way to land and you hope that the first person is not screwing around trying to make down wind landings) With this being said, it is important to note that no one had landed when I made final approach. This being the case, I flew over the wind sock and the streamer to make sure that the winds had not changed. As I passed over them, I noticed that the windsock was relatively still and that the streamer was out at 90 pointing that winds were now coming from the north and not the south. Given that no one had landed yet, I setup my landing pattern to land into the wind. After speaking with other jumpers on the load, some said that although the streamer was moving but the wind sock was not, they were going to maintain a north to south pattern while others changed to go opposite because of the streamer (this is problem #1..the importance of the streamer vs. the no wind landing pattern) I made the decision that since the streamer was at 90 in the opposite direction than initially thought, I would correct my landing pattern and land into the wind.

The other issue here was that I knew there were two other people in the sky that should have been under canopy around me. I took time to look around but for whatever reason, I was not able to spot either of them. At 1K I setup for my approach and came in for an aggressive (swoop) landing.

The other jumper involved was also coming in, at that exact time, in a swoop as well, at the exact spot that I was coming in. We both noticed each other at the last minute and barely avoided a full body collision. The other jumper stated that he was following the landing pattern set earlier that day and that he was too far from the streamer to see what it was doing. However, he did state that the winds were very mild and that he felt the landing pattern set earlier was the landing pattern that should have been used in such calm winds.

During the briefing, there were very different opinions about the winds, the streamer and how important it is in the decision making of a landing, and most of all, landing areas and what should be done to avoid this situation. The pilot informed us that the winds were in fact coming from the north and that, upon final approach by the plane to the runway, he was being pushed from the north as he landed north to south. This being said, the focus turned on to the streamer and the wind sock and just how much the streamer should be used in regards to final approach.

It was my opinion that the winds, being only 4 - 5 mph, still warranted an into the wind landing. However, if others were below me, and were landing the opposite, I would then have two choices. 1. land in the same pattern or 2. land away but still land into the wind. Since no one was down, I chose to set the landing pattern my landing into the wind. Some people in the briefing stated that the streamer does not produce enough wind information to change the landing pattern while others pointed out that the streamer is there for a reason, to indicate low winds and landing patterns.

I do know that in the end, the decision was split as to what should have been done. Many very experienced jumpers say that the landing pattern should have been south to north (the approach I used) while just as many said it should have been (north to south) the pattern the other jumper used.

In my opinion, there were two things that led to this collision:

1. awareness for others in the sky - Although I looked for other jumpers, I did not see this jumper until it was too late. Had I been able to spot him, I would have made sure to do my part to avoid this collision and his feelings are the same.

2. landing patterns - if there is a situation where winds are changing and speeds are mild, each load in the air should mention the set pattern if at all possible. During our briefing, I was informed that a landing pattern two loads ago was set to north to south. I, along with some others did not hear this, and by load 4, the winds had changed to the opposite direction.

This situation has many different factors that caused much confusion amongst jumpers on the ground. I am glad that I walked away with only a dislocated shoulder and that the other jumper was also able to walk way with minor injuries. We both could have been killed but we weren't. This landing was not as simple as the title of this topic states. We all know that in a no wind landing situation jumpers should land in the set path. We also know that if you are following others in, you should all land in the same direction. Neither of those were the case on this jump.

As with any incident, much can be learned from this. Based on what I heard during our briefing, I can only assume that there are mixed feelings about this in the SD community at all DZ's. I was told yesterday that this situation is a "gray" area and that nothing is really set in stone about it. I THINK THAT IS THE PART THAT PISSES ME OFF THE MOST. This sport is far too aggressive and far too dangerous to have "gray" areas. Although people might feel differently about it, rules set in stone at each DZ about situations

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

Good advice.
Now, if your DZ already has a set landing pattern (i.e. land in the same direction as the first guy) and someone lands opposite to the rest of his load, how do you enforce the landing pattern?

BEEEEER!!!!!

[flyingarab 0]

haaa...and vicodin

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[riggerrob 643]

Maybe we should rephrase the landing policy at Pitt Meadows to state "when winds are less than 5 knots, land to the west."
All this arguing over wind direction when there are only 2 or 3 knots of wind is silly and dangerous.

[flyingarab 0]

Wow, meaning that winds that are 4-5mph are not worth worrying about? That is interesting considering the Tandem felt as though landing down wind on that one was way too fast. We have streamers for a reason. To disregard any wind direction or speed is the only thing that I would consider silly or dangerous. All wind conditions should be taken seriously no matter how fast or slow. If not, why even have streamers?

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Wow, meaning that winds that are 4-5mph are not worth worrying about? That is interesting considering the Tandem felt as though landing down wind on that one was way too fast. We have streamers for a reason. To disregard any wind direction or speed is the only thing that I would consider silly or dangerous. All wind conditions should be taken seriously no matter how fast or slow. If not, why even have streamers?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ignoring winds less than 5 knots is chosing the lesser of two evils. Given the choice between landing a tandem downwind - with 4 knots of wind - and risking a low-altitude canopy collision, I would much rather land downwind.

riggerrob
2700 tandem jumps last time I counted

[flyingarab 0]

Landing down wind is never the right option unless it is to avoid hazards, incidents, or to practice swoops. If you are the first down, and you know that others are going to follow your pattern, and you still choose a down wind even at 5pmh, you have just put some low time jumpers at risk.

This situation was an issue of visibility of eachother not whether or not 5mph winds or 4 mph winds are worth dealing with.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[TribalTalon 0]

i think what he is getting at is that if you had gone ahead and landed to the south, then the collision with the other guy simply wouldnt have happened. you MIGHT have had a little bit of a tough time landing, but you do downwind landings every once in a while to swoop anyway. anyway, i see his point. i think that unless you're an instructor or somebody qualified to know exactly what to do for a low timer, everybody should just do as the romans do, which is land to the south in a no wind/very little wind situation. that way you eliminate the possibility of a head on canopy collision. people might have rough landings but i'd rather somebody had a rough landing then kill me and them in a canopy collision. *shrugs*

[flyingarab 0]

It seems to me that depending on who you speak with, the answer to this question is not as simply as "do as the romans do". However, if this means that the first person down should land down wind in order to avoid collisions, the idea itself does not make sense. The point of the streamer and wind sock is to inform us as to the direction of the wind. The rules of into the wind landings to not apply to winds that exceed 5mph but instead all wind conditions. Being that the other jumper and I were down and the same time and simply did not see eachother, we both setup to land as if we were the first ones down. As I stated earlier, the tandem that left after us landed in the pattern that you stated and he had a hell of a time slowing down. Although the speed of the winds does not seem extreme, it can still be deemed unsafe depending on the jumpers skill level and the type of landing being performed.

Upon take off, landing patterns are set, but that is given the notion that the winds will not change direction. In this case, the winds did a 180 degree change. As told to me by an "experienced jumper" there are clues all around that the winds changed. Not just the wind sock and streamer but flags on poles, water in the lake and pond etc... Not being able to see the wind sock or streamer does not mean that a down wind landing should be performed.

Perhaps you both should take some time to define low winds. Perhaps to a skilled jumper a low wind is 10mph and to a newbee the low wind mark is 3mph. However there is not misunderstanding when you use the term down wind, into the wind, or cross wind. Those terms are specific and we are all taught to land into the wind.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[TribalTalon 0]

i understand exactly what you're saying, but what i was getting at is, which is really more dangerous, a downwind landing in maybe 5mph winds, or a possible canopy collision? *shrugs* i think thats really what the debate should be about.

[billvon 2,991]

>Wow, meaning that winds that are 4-5mph are not worth worrying about?

Having everyone land downwind in the same direction is a lot less dangerous than having people land in several different directions so they all land into the wind.

> All wind conditions should be taken seriously no matter how fast or slow.

Can be a bit of a problem when the winds are so light that the streamer is pointing in 4 different directions in the course of a minute. You will get people landing in four different directions, which can lead to problems. It's a big problem in places like Perris or Eloy where summer winds can shift quickly in light winds.

[billvon 2,991]

>In my opinion, there were two things that led to this collision:

I would add a third, which is that when wind conditions are ambiguous, fly a wide conservative pattern that a) telegraphs your intentions clearly, b) allows for good visibility and c) allows more "outs" if you have to bail on the approach (i.e. you see someone headed towards you.)

[DancingFlame 0]

This problem is easy to solve. Just pursue DZO to buy a BIG RED ARROW - like one in Aerograd Kolomna http://dimm.wdcb.ru/public/KLMN_14_02/112_1227.html
All skydivers must land as this arrow points to. This arrow have some compressed air inside and it weights pretty low. So, when wind strong enough and changes direction, arrow turns 'automatically'. In no winds conditions, S&TA turns the arrow by himself.

[Zenister 0]

[reply It's a big problem in places like Perris or Eloy where summer winds can shift quickly in light winds.

[flyingarab 0]

I have thought long and hard about this issue and have come to a conclusion of my own (partly based on what I have read etc..)

The main issue here is that I did think I was the first one down, so the idea of landing into the wind with the chance of a collision was not even in my mind. Had I seen this other person coming in at the same time, I would have made the decision to land far away from the main area. Granted, as billvon and others have stated, given the choice of a downwind or collision pick downwind. That is a no brainer. However the key words used are "given the choice". Being that when I looked neither myself or the other jumper were able to spot eachother, removed any idea that a choice was even necessary. To us, it look as though each was the only one remotely close to landing.

I realized that the canopy I could not see was a dark colored one and the jumper was wearing a gray / black suit. I am used to spotting the bright canopies and suites making this a little different. Being that there are trees and brush in the area, it was not easy for me to see the jumpers with such colors.

Also, I have come to realize that the arrow idea is one that should be accepted for the most part. This means, if you want to land in the main landing area (where spectators are watching) you must land in the direction of the arrow. IF you want to turn and land opposite this, you must land away in an area that will set you aside from the other jumpers.

I want to thank those of you that add input to this in an educated way. I have come to realise that there are two types of people who give advice. Those that can play both sides and comprehend what was happening in all ways, and those that simply want to be right no matter what. For those of you that have taken the time to visualize this situation, my dislocated shoulder and I thank you. Your input is much appreciated and well noted.

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[TheBachelor 5]

A problem I regularly see in light winds is people chasing the tetrahedron. My DZ has a policy of "low or no-winds, land towards the lake" and, "the first person down sets the landing direction. If you don't like it, land in one of the 'alternate' landing areas."

Apparently, many people forget these policies, creating potentially dangerous situations. Early in the day on Saturday, we had low winds which were changing directions constantly. One of the jumpers did something really smart: Prior to boarding, he announced to everyone in the boarding area what the DZ's policy was with winds like they were, and everyone ended up landing in the same direction.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[flyingarab 0]

Good point. Perhaps a simple mention by jumpers while on the plane regarding landing patterns will be a great way to make it happen. We also have alternate landing areas and I am sure they will see more use now than ever before..

Sincerely,

FlyingArab
www.flyingarab.com

[Shark 0]

Quote

Apparently, many people forget these policies, creating potentially dangerous situations. Early in the day on Saturday, we had low winds which were changing directions constantly. One of the jumpers did something really smart: Prior to boarding, he announced to everyone in the boarding area what the DZ's policy was with winds like they were, and everyone ended up landing in the same direction.

That was a smart gesture and I also feel the DZ should make occaisional reminders over the PA. Since we have many "visiting" jumpers it wouldn't be a bad idea to do this. I've also seen several jumpers doing 180s on to final, which is illegal in the main landing area.