Flaring your reserve?

[jumper03 0]

I just got my new issue of skydiving and there are several reports in there of peeps flaring their reserve and getting dumped on their backs -

My question is - Could those have been avoided if they did a practice flare up high? Wouldn't the canopy react the same way?

Or am I missing something obvious? (which wouldn't be the first time).

Scars remind us that the past is real

[billvon 2,998]

>Could those have been avoided if they did a practice flare up high?

Yes. Well, several flares, so they know where the stall point is under different conditions (i.e. fast flare, slow flare.) A better way to avoid this would be to avoid using Super Ravens (and similar reserves) at high loadings.

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

>Could those have been avoided if they did a practice flare up high?

Yes. Well, several flares, so they know where the stall point is under different conditions (i.e. fast flare, slow flare.) A better way to avoid this would be to avoid using Super Ravens (and similar reserves) at high loadings.

Saw a prominent World Team skydiver compound fracture his arm landing a Raven reserve - stalled it on the flare.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[fatmarl 0]

When I had my reserve out I practised flaring up high(ish) but still plf'd it on landing - high stress, lack of time - chances of walking away unhurt are higher with a plf (in my opinion).

[Icon134 0]

I didn't have any trouble flairing and landing my PD 160 Reserve. (I even stood it up...) I don't recall whether I did a practice flair at altitude or not...

edited to add: I would have PLF'd my landing if it haddn't have been going quite right... as I always am ready to do PLF my landing...

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Saw a prominent World Team skydiver compound fracture his arm landing a Raven reserve - stalled it on the flare.

Yeah, Dick Klimas... one of my friends in my home state. I'm glad I don't have one of those Micro Raven reserves...

I use a Tempo 120, which I have landed once. It was a little mushy even at 1.5 loading, but it got me down unhurt.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

It sounds like you may not have rented a reserve to play around with yet to get a feel for how reserves can differ from main canopies in terms of their landing characteristics. Assuming you pack a PD reserve, why not contact PD and arrange a demo?

http://www.performancedesigns.com/demos.asp

Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[katzurki 0]

because they are half the world away and won't send it overseas

oh wait, it wasn't me you asked

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

oh wait, it wasn't me you asked

I never let that stop me, Katzurki

Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[jumper03 0]

Quote

It sounds like you may not have rented a reserve to play around with yet to get a feel for how reserves can differ from main canopies in terms of their landing characteristics. Assuming you pack a PD reserve, why not contact PD and arrange a demo?

wth are you talking about? I demoed my reserve before I bought it.
I'm talking about all the people who stalled their reserve on landing - see the recent issue of skydiving.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Zep 0]

Last reserve ride I had (wrap cutaway) was on a Lopo.................. so I'm not qualified to answer.

I'm in a catch 22, I'd love to know if I could do a stand up with my reserve, but I don't want to find out.

I think people after reading this thread will remember it, an when they are unfortunate enough to have
a reserve ride they will do a stall test, Hight permitting.

Gone fishing

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

Quote

wth are you talking about? I demoed my reserve before I bought it.

Good for you! Most jumpers I know _don't_ do this - the first time they land a reserve is after they cutaway. That's 'wth' I'm talking about, mon

Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

[
Saw a prominent World Team skydiver compound fracture his arm landing a Raven reserve - stalled it on the flare.

And I haven't yet heard a good reasons for:

1. Overloading a reserve canopy beyond the mfgr's specs.

2. Not doing practice flares to find the stall point, immediately after deploying an unfamiliar canopy.

I've used both Raven reserves and PD reserves w/o problem.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

And I haven't yet heard a good reasons for:
...
2. Not doing practice flares to find the stall point, immediately after deploying an unfamiliar canopy.

How about "reserve inflated 200 feet from the ground"?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

Quote

And I haven't yet heard a good reasons for:
...
2. Not doing practice flares to find the stall point, immediately after deploying an unfamiliar canopy.

How about "reserve inflated 200 feet from the ground"?

Well that would bring me to a third question...

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Amazon 7]

I had a Raven -M on my first reserve ride.. not highly loaded like 1.1 to 1 and had no issue at all..flared and stood it up at Mesquite NV..stood it up right on the edge of the peas.

In Aug at Jumptown I got to fly my Raven r-Max loaded at 1.5 to 1.. still no issue... flared well and stood it up..right on the nice soft wood chips.

Both reserve rides.. I practised flares and turns.. while up high enough to recover... I highly recommend trying out your reserve canopys before you have to fly them as well. GET A DEMO and jump it.( I know.. you did this but alot of people have not.)

I think a couple things could be happening with the bad flares... 7 cell reserve.. as opposed to the 9 cell ZP mains is lots different shutting it down with a flare.

I also think there is some adrenalin causing an over-amped flare....

[JohnMitchell 16]

I've seen reserves stall when flaring, not a pretty sight. My Raven is loaded 1.1:1, lands nicely, no problems in 3 uses now. Maybe small reserves have a shorter control stroke, and a big person with long arms is too much for them. Any experts lurking out there with the real answer?

[billvon 2,998]

>I think a couple things could be happening with the bad flares...

I think the primary issue is that there are reserves out there, specifically Swifts and Super Ravens, that do not flare like HP canopies when heavily loaded; they stall very early in the toggle stroke, and thus can cause injury when flown like a HP main. Like you said, anyone jumping these sorts of canopies at high loadings MUST practice flaring them up high before trying to land them.

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

>I think a couple things could be happening with the bad flares...

I think the primary issue is that there are reserves out there, specifically Swifts and Super Ravens, that do not flare like HP canopies when heavily loaded; they stall very early in the toggle stroke, and thus can cause injury when flown like a HP main. Like you said, anyone jumping these sorts of canopies at high loadings MUST practice flaring them up high before trying to land them.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Back when Ravens and Swifts were designed, no-one in their right mind was loading mains more than 1:1, ergo no-one knew how to design a reserve that flared well when heavily-loaded.
Even - the late - Chris from Precision admitted that Ravens flew poorly when loaded more than 1.4, then he launched into a sales pitch about how well Precision's new R-Max reserves flew when loaded almost 2:1.
Since the Raven generation, several new generations of reserves have been designed to land softly at heavy wing-loadings: Amigo, Next, Performance Designs, Smart, Techno, Tempo, etc.

Final dig: anyone who expects any reserve to flare like an elliptical cnaopy is deluding themselves.

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

I've seen reserves stall when flaring, not a pretty sight. My Raven is loaded 1.1:1, lands nicely, no problems in 3 uses now. Maybe small reserves have a shorter control stroke, and a big person with long arms is too much for them.

Bingo! The length of the control stroke is completely configurable by the attachment points of the upper steering lines to the trailing edge.

- Move the innermost steering line attachments outward toward the end cells, and you lengthen the control stroke. (Less trailing edge is deflected by the steering lines.) Toggle pressure will be softer.

- Move the innermost steering line attachments toward the center cell, and you shorten the control stroke. (More trailing edge is deflected by the steering lines.) Toggle pressure will be stiffer.

This is the reason for the flare toggles on a Sigma tandem canopy.

Of course when you change steering line attachment points, the brake settings will need to be adjusted.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

My Raven is loaded 1.1:1, lands nicely, no problems in 3 uses now. Maybe small reserves have a shorter control stroke, and a big person with long arms is too much for them.

I watched a friend get dumped on her backside landing a Raven 150-ish. This canopy was loaded at approximately 1:1.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

Quote

I didn't have any trouble flairing and landing my PD 160 Reserve. (I even stood it up...) I don't recall whether I did a practice flair at altitude or not...

edited to add: I would have PLF'd my landing if it haddn't have been going quite right... as I always am ready to do PLF my landing...

Scott

I jumped the intentional cutaway rig at a boogie just to fly a PD-176R(this is the reserve in my container). The canopy definately flies differently. The first time I practice flared it, it stalled. I did several more practice flares and was later able to stand up the landing. But if I was low and under that canopy for the first time, I would have definately injured myself.

Everyone should do a practice jump on their reserve.

Kris.

[freakyrat 1]

I had to use my PD143R Reserve and it flared and landed me just fine.

I demoed a PD126R Reserve at Quincy several years back and it also flew like a reserve should and was real easy to land even in the heat.

Chris

[popsjumper 2]

Am I being too simplistic by saying that stalling on landing is easily avoided by the "fly your canopy all the way to the ground" idea instead of just blindly pulling toggles?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

Am I being too simplistic by saying that stalling on landing is easily avoided by the "fly your canopy all the way to the ground" idea instead of just blindly pulling toggles?

I try to check the stall point up high on a canopy to find out where it is. On a reserve, you often don't have much familiariztion time with it before you land. F-111 7-cells need a lot of flare to land softly, and a lot quicker flare than a 9-cell ZP. I've seen reserves with little people under them stall badly without even a full flare. That's a bad flying characteristics for an emergency parachute, an indication of a poor design. A reserve should not be tricky to fly, but as docile as possible.