Flaring your reserve?

[billvon 2,995]

> I've seen reserves with little people under them stall badly
>without even a full flare. That's a bad flying characteristics for an
> emergency parachute, an indication of a poor design.

That depends on what you want your reserve to do. For someone used to modern small ellipticals, it can make a reserve tough to land. For someone used to F-111's that shut down hard, it can be a better choice (at the appropriate loading.)

When I started skydiving, none of the old-timers at our DZ liked the newfangled Monarchs and Sabres because when you flared them they wouldn't 'shut down' - instead you would plane out for 30-40 feet. What would happen (they would ask) if you had to land out in a small area, and you couldn't shut the thing down before you ran into a fence? Clearly an indication of a poor design!

It's all in what you're used to and what you want.

[skydiver30960 0]

Not much to add to the list, other than to say that it's awfully topical since I got to use my PD176 for the first time today! Spinner... oh well. Great flying reserve, great flare. My third reserve save, first time I saved myself...

I DEFINITELY took time for a couple practice flares up high (well, relatively speaking) and had a standup landing in the peas.

Sorry for the useless post, off to buy beer...

Elvisio "self-rigger" rodriguez

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

When I started skydiving, none of the old-timers at our DZ liked the newfangled Monarchs and Sabres because when you flared them they wouldn't 'shut down' - instead you would plane out for 30-40 feet. What would happen (they would ask) if you had to land out in a small area, and you couldn't shut the thing down before you ran into a fence? Clearly an indication of a poor design!

It's all in what you're used to and what you want.

Well, I see the point you're trying to make. I'm an old timer, but I never had that complaint about the "new fangled" parachutes. I wouldn't, though, take a Sabre to an accuracy meet. I do complain when people get hurt needlessly, whether it's a tiny elliptical swooper or a reserve with the stall point too shallow.

Let's consider the reserve. It's made to be as reliable as possible. You're likely to be low, possibly off the DZ, and very likely very pumped up. That's not the time for a twitchy, tricky to flare, hard to land canopy. I know little about canopy design and airfoil choices. I do know that there are a myriad of airfoils in the world, all with different characteristics. I know that brake lines should be long enough on an F-111 7-cell that the stall point is near the bottom of the control stroke. I've seen reserves stall out sooner than looked reasonable to me. I've seen those stalls seriously injure jumpers. I don't think that's a good thing. Any canopy manufacturers out there with a comment?

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Am I being too simplistic by saying that stalling on landing is easily avoided by the "fly your canopy all the way to the ground" idea instead of just blindly pulling toggles?

I think this has a lot to do with it. The incident I saw involved a jumper who just pulled the toggles all the way down rather than any kind of progressive flare.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

I know that brake lines should be long enough on an F-111 7-cell that the stall point is near the bottom of the control stroke.

For who? The 5'2" 100 lb girl for whom that 120 reserve was designed? In that case the 6'2" 200 lb guy who insists on jumping that same 120 will be bitching it stalls before he gets to the bottom of his control stroke. Now if the mfgr designs that 120 to have a control stroke the correct length for the 6'2" guy, that little girl will be eating dirt because her control stroke wasn't long enough to get a full flare.

I have jumped a Raven reserve, and it flew and landed just fine. Of course being the headstrong rebel that I am, I was loading it within specs at 1.0 instead of following peer-pressure driven style.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[JohnMitchell 16]

Quote

[For who? The 5'2" 100 lb girl for whom that 120 reserve was designed? In that case the 6'2" 200 lb guy who insists on jumping that same 120 will be bitching it stalls before he gets to the bottom of his control stroke. Now if the mfgr designs that 120 to have a control stroke the correct length for the 6'2" guy, that little girl will be eating dirt because her control stroke wasn't long enough to get a full flare.

That's a question I posed earlier, and I agree with you that people should pay attention to the manufacturer's recommended W/L. I do. But I did see a reserve stall suddenly on a little 110 pound woman, not over loaded, not over flared. She broke her back. I was not impressed with the flight characteristics of her reserve. I didn't get a chance to see what type of reserve it was.

[DanglesOZQld 0]

Practise if possible a few times with height before having the landing.

Have a slightly over loaded Tempo myself and have done a few never with any problems...........

BSBD! -Mark.

"A Scar is just a Tattoo with a story!!!"

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I think this has a lot to do with it. The incident I saw involved a jumper who just pulled the toggles all the way down rather than any kind of progressive flare.

Progressive flare? I had plenty of jumps on F111 canopies. Flaring those was just pull toggles down until the stall point.....

[kallend 2,027]

Quote

Quote

I think this has a lot to do with it. The incident I saw involved a jumper who just pulled the toggles all the way down rather than any kind of progressive flare.

Progressive flare? I had plenty of jumps on F111 canopies. Flaring those was just pull toggles down until the stall point.....

Sure - that's why we are having this thread. People are stalling their F111 reserves and getting seriously injured. I would venture that your F111 experience was at a WL somewhat less than these reserves.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkydiveMO 0]

Jumping a reserve should be no different than jumping any other new canopy. After opening first determine if you need to quickly plan your landing, as may be the case in a low deployment. Then if time and altitude allows make sure it can go right, left and flares properly. After a simple control check put the canopy through a series of landing flares to see how it will behave. Becoming familiar with the canopy up high will avoid any surprises down low. To truly maximize your chance of avoiding injury go ahead and perform a good parachute landing fall no matter how good the flare may feel on landing. A first reserve ride can be very stressful for a jumper, especially if they have never had experience with a 7-cell F111 canopy. Making a few jumps on a demo reserve can really help reduce this stress level and give jumpers valuable experience on something other then a modern ZP 9-cell.

I still jump an Interceptor 225 CRW canopy from time to time so my Temp 170 felt pretty high performance… heck I even got a little swoop out of it

[faulknerwn 38]

Quote

Quote

I
For who? The 5'2" 100 lb girl for whom that 120 reserve was designed?

I'm a pretty small 5'1 girl and my Dash-M 109 stalled when the toggles reached my shoulders. I pounded in and traded it immediately for a Tempo 120. I do a lot of CRW and have 8-9 rides now on my Tempo 120 and it flares like a typical freefall canopy these days - surfs quite nice too in no wind...

My Microraven 120 I find very difficult to land unless I come in with extra speed. I've figured out when I jump it that I need to come in on front risers to get a good flare..


W

• Quote

[jumperconway 0]

Demoed a PD126R when I had a 143R in my first rig. Ordered a 113R in my second rig. 3 rides, beautiful canopy loaded like 1.73/1. Bought a used rig with Micro Raven 120-M. first ride on it and forgot it wasn't a PD, stalled at approx my shoulders! Luckily I was only a few feet off the ground, still painful but not broken. Put it up for sale and bought a PD106R. PDR(any W/L) rocks, Raven (HW/L) rash!
I jump a Xaos 27-79 and wouldn't mind jumping either the 113 or 106 as a main!