how much should you emphasise the dangers of skydiving to someone wanting to take it up?

[Newbie 0]

So my 2 good (non jumping) friends come up to make tandems this weekend. One of them catches the bug BIG time and is talking about doing a course to learn for himself as soon as he is back on the ground/all the way back on the drive home.

I'm really excited by the prospect as he is a great friend, and i tell him all about AFF, whats involved, what the cost is, what happens post-AFF etc, but at the same time, i'm thinking "well after my first tandem, i wanted to immediately learn, but it was 3 years later until i took it up" so i decide i won't hold my breath as he could be some time in coming to his decision.

So he calls me last night and has said he has been looking to book his AFF course but doesn't know which dz! So obviously i'm pleasantly surprised and really excited about the whole turn of events, but at the same time i don't want to sugar coat things for him. So i say "mate this is great news, but let me tell you a few things...." and i proceed to give him the "skydiving is NOT safer than driving" and "you can do everything right and still die" and "even if you don't die, you can still get injured very badly through no fault of your own, and certainly through fault of your own" and that he must be prepared to accept the risk of essentially what it means to jump from planes.

So there is silence on the line, then a "mate - thanks A LOT!" from him. While we had a laugh at this, i did say to him that i just want him to be 100% sure he knew what he was getting into, as it wasn't bowls or darts. He has 2 small children, and the last thing i would want is for anyone, and particularly a close friend, to get into something they didn't know the full risks of, particularly when you have direct dependents like kids. His reponse to me was "well YOU do it, and you aren't a big risk taker" to which i replied "i don't have kids and when i do, i will have a sit down and reevaluate the risk".

I told him this doesn't mean i will stop jumping at that point, it just means i will make sure i'm happy to do what i'm doing as long as the benefit outweighs the risk. This definitely gave him some food for thought.

I told him he should sleep on what i said and we would speak tomorrow and go through some more options for him (i had to get off the phone, the wife was calling).

Was i TOO in your face? I don't think so, after all, it's the reality of the sport. I did say to him the sport is hugely rewarding and just the most amazing fun you can have, which he seemed stoked about, but when i talked about death/injury part it was almost like he didn't want to hear about it, which i guess is understandable (who wants their dream tainted?)

Anyway, what's the best way to approach someone new wanting to get into the sport, especially after they have had a taste of it, like a tandem? How much of the "pessimistic outlook" or "doom and gloom" should be used? I don't want to discourage the guy, i just want him to be aware of the risks etc. I haven't been in this position so would like to know how best to handle it when speaking to him again tonight.

Thanks

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 10]

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Was i TOO in your face?

No be honest. Give him the Parachutist with the incident reports in it.

Let him know that 1 in a 1,000 jumpers die a year. (Based off of 35000 USPA members and 35 deaths a year.)

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[BIGUN 1,399]

Sounds as though you provided enough information to allow someone to make an informed decision.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tdog 0]

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I haven't been in this position so would like to know how best to handle it when speaking to him again tonight.

You have told him the risks... If he asks again, you can tell him more... Now it is his decision.
Ron's 2004 analysis http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1472310;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread will also point to the causes of death and show that avoiding certain things or learning about certain things makes it a little safer (motivation to learn and not become complacent)- as the equipment related incidents are often less than the human error incidents.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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He has 2 small children, and the last thing i would want is for anyone, and particularly a close friend, to get into something they didn't know the full risks of, particularly when you have direct dependents like kids.

My wife and I both skydive and we have 4 kids. Your friend should make sure his life insurance pays off if he gets killed skydiving. Some policies do not pay off for any aviation death other than scheduled or chartered flights.

[Pawel 0]

You did provide him with info on skydiving . Now it's up to him to make the decision. When I started my brother tried to discourage me because I have a kid. But once he noticed I am going to do it anyway he just said have fun and don't f*&K up. That reminds me I have to check my life insurance policy.

[ChrisL 2]

So whats he gonna do?

__

My mighty steed

[LawnDart21 0]

I don't consider it over board to explain the worst case scenarios to a prospective jumper, I think its actually very appropriate, as long as it's done to foster a better understanding of the risk tolerances within this sport, rather than to scare someone away. Your post suggests you elected the former, to educate your friend in an attempt to help them make an informed decision.
No problemo.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Andy9o8 2]

You told your friend...er, mate...almost exactly what I tell my non-jumper friends who ask me the same thing. For what it's worth, I stayed out of the sport for a number of years when my wife got preggers with our first kid, and got back into it once they were older. (skies call, after all...) (My older kid's driving gives truth to the myth that you're more likely to die driving, etc...). I'm completely non-judgmental about people who choose to either keep jumping or take a hiatus from the sport while they have younger kids. I think you told him the right things, the right way.

[nael 0]

I think you did the right thing. I never try to talk my friends into doing a tandem for the same reason, they could die and if that happens I want to be sure it was their informed decision that led to that, not me influencing them.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[Icon134 0]

I've actually talked my friends out of skydiving... Which is fine... I don't sugar coat... and I'm pretty straight up about things...

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[LawnDart21 0]

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I've actually talked my friends out of skydiving...

Why?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[winsor 236]

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I've actually talked my friends out of skydiving...

Why?

Because it is by no means for everyone.

I have known people who made one jump, and either had a horrible time or were injured when doing so. In two cases they were there because fellow frat-boys pressured them into making the jump, but the result was the same.

In the Army, you MUST be a volunteer to jump. You have to want to do it rather badly in order to get the chance, and you can turn down ANY jump (you likely won't get a chance to make another jump if you do - or to have the right to wear jump wings again - but that's your choice).

One man's meat is another man's poison. Just because I find skydiving to be very rewarding, that does not mean that everyone will have the same reaction as do I.

If someone is willing to jump for all the wrong reasons, talking them out of it is probably doing them a favor.

I've been detailed to give people "the talk" enough times that I think prevention is the preferred approach. Some people are craters looking grid coordinates from the word go, and the sky is not always the optimal place to discover that.

Even if the gene pool could use a little chlorine, I would rather not make excessive use of the Darwinian nature of the sport.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[Icon134 0]

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I've actually talked my friends out of skydiving...

Why?

I'm not saying i actually told them NOT to take it up... I merely told them that it wasn't ALL smiles and fun... I've already lost 1 good friend to the sport... and was at the DZ on a day that another one died...

I believe *I* understand the risk that I take and I have chosen to accept that risk... but this activity isn't for everyone and there is nothing wrong with that... I don't have any less respect/compassion for my friends/family which chose not to do this...

Don't missunderstand I do emphasize that there are numerous reasons to play in the sky... but most of these things can't be explained to someone who hasn't jumped... and even video and pictures of me jumping don't do justice to the experience of actually skydiving...

That's why.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Antidote 0]

Think you handed it fair handedly, providing him with information he needed to make a correct decision.

When asked about whether skydiving is dangerous, I merely say "It's dangerous to some level and you can add all the danger you want as you go".

Usually this elicits a request for more info, which is the way I like it. People tend to listen more when they have asked a question directly rather than when they're more or less being told.

I also tell 'em that if they're in the sport for ten years and are relatively active jumpers, they're probably gonna get hurt or have a friend get hurt. Or killed.

Maybe that is over the top but it is my experience so far - and I have by no means been in the sport long (a little over two years). I might be a bit jaded based on personal experiences though.

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I know what darts are, but I have not a clue what bowls are......So, what is it.

And no, was not too inyourface.........

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[LawnDart21 0]

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Because it is by no means for everyone.

I absolutely agree Winsor, but.........I think it wholey appropriate to assess someones ability, health or mental attitude, and determine they are not fit for skydiving, and giving them "the talk". But thats not the same as "talking someone out of it" before they ever jump or even get to the DZ.

Your "the talk" is talking about clearly stating specific reasoning based on some short coming they have that may make them a "danger". "The talk" is also typically given by either an instructor, or in your case, a jumper with alot of time and jumps inthe sport. Think about it, if every jumper off of an A-license dubbed themselves "the talk" giver...........

In this situation, Icon doesnt seem to have made a judgement on his friends abilities, warranting "the talk", rather he was informing them of the risk tolerances, etc, that ultimately dissuaded them, the result of which talked them out of it.

I'm all for sharing knowledge of our sport with whuffos, the good stuff and the dangers, but I always remind myself that when speaking to any wuffo about skydiving that I am doing so as an ambassidor of the sport. A typical example of this is the "what happens if neither chutes opens?" question. The answer the whuffo obviously wants is simply "You will die if neither chute opens". The "ambassidor" part is then taking the time go into detail about all of the safety mechanismsn involved that make a total-total mal a highly irregular event. I just think that when speaking to prospective new students to our sport that we need to be encouraging. "Bowling ball" assessments can come later, by instructors and the like, but respresnting your DZ and your sport positively to whuffos is vital.

Side note: What talk do bowlers give someone that is a danger in the bowling alley?

"Jimbo, the Alley owner and I talked, and we think it'd be best if you didn't continue to bowl. Don't take it personally, bowling isn't for everybody you know. Have you ever thought about playing cards for fun?"

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.