Do SL Jumps Count Towards A License?

[Kramer 0]

I am getting close to getting my A, but a friend has brought something to my attention that I'm curious about.

I started out on Static Line progression, and made 4 static line jumps. I then switched over to freefall, and all 16 of my jumps since then have been freefall jumps.

In the SIM and on the A License Profieciency Card it says "Complete 25 Jumps" or "Complete 25 Skydives" in order to get your A license.

My question is, do my 4 static line jumps count towards those 25 that I need??

Thank you.

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[mwabd1 0]

I do not think that they do, well when I did mine the static line jumps did not count. In my log book the s/l jumps were numbered A,B,C etc.

[cruzit 0]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I haven't remembered correctly, but....

I'm pretty sure S/L jumps count towards the number of skydives...but not towards Freefall time (as there isn't any).

[AndyMan 7]

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My question is, do my 4 static line jumps count towards those 25 that I need??

Yes. A skydive is a skydive, when it comes to jump numbers.

It's more important that you have a properly filled out proficiency card.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[seal_S49 0]

Some confusion may still linger because not long ago, the A license required 20 freefall skydives, excluding SL jumps.

[Kramer 0]

For those interested parties, I emailed the USPA and asked them, here was their response:

Cory,
Any jumps, so long as they are documented, can be counted towards the
25 jump requirement for a USPA A license.
Hope this helps.

Rhonda Kaletz
USPA
Assistant Director of Safety & Training
703-836-3495 ext 315


There it is.

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[mustard 0]

Hi Kramer,

The S/L jumps do not count toward your 25 jumps for your A license. They are considered a parachute jump but not freefall jumps. But any tandems you do definitely count toward that license.

***
DJan

[koz2000 1]

Ok so we have an impass here. One USPA assistant director of S&T says yes, one USPA director says no. The 2004SIM does not state that SL jumps are excluded from license requiring jumps. It says as long as the jumps are made in accordance with USPA requirements. I guess you'll have to wait until the next executive commitee to meet until you get your ruling.


BTW no offense directed to any of the parties above

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[Squeak 17]

I would think that any jump under a parachute in YOUR control would count for at least your accuracy requirments if not the 5, 10, 30 seconds for freefall

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[mustard 0]

I stand corrected. I was informed that the SIM states that, although there was a time when only freefall jumps counted toward a license, in the 2004 SIM, on page 12, the requirement for an A License reads simply "completed 25 jumps" without specifying freefall jumps. For license purposes and rating prerequisites, static line and tandem jumps count as jumps, and droguefall counts as freefall.

I am sorry to say that I have as recently as this past weekend discounted S/L jumps toward an A license. Now I have a question, since this student had 125 S/L jumps in the military, once he finishes his AFF training proficiency card, he is good to go for an A?

***
DJan

[markbaur 0]

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Now I have a question, since this student had 125 S/L jumps in the military, once he finishes his AFF training proficiency card, he is good to go for an A?

Yes, he is. The same SIM section you cited says "License qualifications made during military training jumps may be properly recorded on the application for that USPA license and verified by the appropriate USPA official." So military jumps count.

Your student needs to show evidence of his jumps -- his military training record if he can produce it, or whatever other evidence you choose to accept.

His jumps at 800 or 1200 feet were made under military orders, so not in violation of any BSR.

His proficiency card verifies his other A License skills.

Is he available to teach PLFs?

Mark

[mustard 0]

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His jumps at 800 or 1200 feet were made under military orders, so not in violation of any BSR.

His proficiency card verifies his other A License skills.

Is he available to teach PLFs?

Oh man! I was really happy to get him into the peas to teach PLFs! Those military guys have taught me a lot. This guy just started AFF last weekend. Says his wife is happy to find out he's taking up something safer -- he's parachuted at night into Iraq at 800 feet. And he's probably going to be done with AFF before the week is out.

***
DJan

[GreenLight 8]

Well at least he isn't afraid of the ground coming up fast. Maybe he'd make a good base jumper! LOL!

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[nbblood 0]

So I can add my military jumps to my mini-profile?? J/K. I was told during AFF that military jumps didn't count, but that was another time, maybe the new statement in the 2004 SIM made that change, or it was a way for the DZ to get more $$ from (doubtful), or more likely, just not clear what counts and what doesn't.

Anyway, good discussion. I learned something.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[wingnut 0]

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I was told during AFF that military jumps didn't count, but that was another time, maybe the new statement in the 2004 SIM made that change

they have counted since i started jumping in 98'... military jumps that is... staticl line jumps didn't count twards an "a" though atthe time.... maybe that is what they were refering too....

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[Ron 10]

SL jumps count. They used to not count when it was you needed 20 Freefalls....Now its just 25 jumps.


Military FF's count...SL didn't And I dont think they do still.

The BSR said they had to be done in accordance with BSR's...an 800 foot exit is NOT in accordance with BSR's.

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4. License qualifications made during military training jumps may be properly recorded on the application for that USPA license and verified by the appropriate USPA official.

However it also says right below it:

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C. Logging jumps for licenses and ratings

Back to Section 3-1 Contents

1. Skydives offered as evidence of qualification must have been:


a. made in accordance with the USPA requirements in effect at the time of the jump

And the BSR's state"

Quote

G. Minimum opening altitudes [E]

Back to Section 2-1 Contents


Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are:


1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL

2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL

So my take is No, Military SL do not count.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[markbaur 0]

To count toward a license, a jump must comply with BSRs. A military static line jump at 800' can be counted, under the provisions of the BSRs (SIM Section 2-1, para A.1). Exit altitude doesn't matter.

Mark

[Ron 10]

OK I was told they don't count.

If they do...Is tll don't care either way... I didn't make a military jump till I had 1500 anyway.

I personally log them, and BASE jumps anyway.

But I don't think a military SL should count....

But once again the USPA makes stupid choices.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Praetorian 1]

not that I disagree but why dont you think military jumps should count (or are you just thinking of static line overall )?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Ron 10]

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not that I disagree but why dont you think military jumps should count

Read what I wrote:

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But I don't think a military SL should count....

Now as for why...Ever do a military SL jump?

I have 30+ Military SL courtisy of the 82nd Airborne.

It takes ZERO skill to do a military SL jump. In fact I know of one guy that did two jumps in division without having been to Jump school.

All you have to do is hook up and walk out a door. You can't control the canopy, and trust me body position does not matter on exit.

A military SL jump has nothing in common with sport skydiving.

100 military SL jumps teaches you nothing about sport skydiving. So they should not count towards any sport ratings or awards. My 1500 freefalls didn't count in the military for that same reason.

While both involve using a parachute to safely land after leaving an aircraft...The similarities end there.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 643]

Lies, damn lies and statistics!

Log your damn military static-line jumps. I did, and I even logged both my bridge jumps when I applied to CSPA and USPA for shiny pins recognizing 1,000 jumps, 24 hours freefall, etc. Nobody in either headquarters complained.

USPA will not care in the long run.

The real issue is skills.

The Canadian Coaching Working Committee has been struggling with this concept for decades. Most members believe that they should issue a Certificate of Proficiency as soon as a junior jumper has performed all the skills on the proficiency card.
However, to satisfy the numerologists, CSPA occaissionally publishs crude numbers that are vaguely related to the "average" skydiver.

Numerologists, stop worrying about statistics and shift your focus to the important issue: teaching a junior jumper the skills needed to complete his proficiency card.

[Ron 10]

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Log your damn military static-line jumps. I did, and I even logged both my bridge jumps when I applied to CSPA and USPA for shiny pins recognizing 1,000 jumps, 24 hours freefall, etc. Nobody in either headquarters complained.

Oh, I logged my Base and my military as well...But for me, not the USPA.

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Numerologists, stop worrying about statistics and shift your focus to the important issue: teaching a junior jumper the skills needed to complete his proficiency card.

And thats my issue...I don't really care after the guy has passed the skillset. But a guy with 30 military static line jumps and just passed AFF level 7 should not be quailified for an A.

But he could if you count military SL jumps.

Like I said I consider them jumps..and most people don't have 100 military SL jumps anyway. So it really does not matter.

I just don't think they should be counted for lisences.....Since the reason to have a certain jump # requirement is to show expereince...And military SL jumps are not even close to the same thing as sport jumps.

A cargo crate can ride a military chute down...And most troopers are nothing more than cargo anyway...Hell I knew guys that closed their eyes as soon as they got to the door and didn't open them till they landed.

That teaches no skills.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[markbaur 0]

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But a guy with 30 military static line jumps and just passed AFF level 7 should not be quailified for an A.

But he could if you count military SL jumps.

Uh, no. Level 7 (Category E, more or less) plus jumps is not enough for a license for any student these days.

A person with military jump experience and Category E air and canopy skills still needs to complete all the ground requirements of Categories A through E, plus all the requirements (air, canopy, and ground) of Categories F, G, and H. Then said jumper would have completed all the requirements of an A license, have the required number of jumps, and earned his license.

Mark

[Ron 10]

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Uh, no. Level 7 (Category E, more or less) plus jumps is not enough for a license for any student these days.

A person with military jump experience and Category E air and canopy skills still needs to complete all the ground requirements of Categories A through E, plus all the requirements (air, canopy, and ground) of Categories F, G, and H. Then said jumper would have completed all the requirements of an A license, have the required number of jumps, and earned his license.

Ok fine 32 Military jumps and some tunnel time.

The point is that military SL have about as much in common to sport skydiving as being a passenger on a bus has to NASCAR

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[markbaur 0]

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Ok fine 32 Military jumps and some tunnel time.

Uh, no. Some of the Category F, G, and H air skills cannot be learned in a tunnel: diving and floater exits, swoop to dock, track. The canopy skills cannot be learned on T-10s or MC-1s. Category F, G, and H canopy work includes braked turns and approaches, reverse turns, front riser dives and spirals, and the accuracy required for an A license: 5 jumps within 20 meters of a target, without assistance. Students have to spot on their check dives; they get to practice in Categories F, G, and H. Packing without assistance is a Category G requirement; replacing a closing loop and doing owner maintenance on a 3-ring are Category H requirements.

So if a student can do all that, why would it matter that he was wearing camouflage part of the time he was earning his license?

By the way, we count tandem jumps toward license requirements. A bus passenger could learn something about driving by observing the driver and helping with the navigation. "Passenger" is not the same as "passive."

A military jumper learns about equipment and equipment inspections, the earth as seen from above, and about canopy motion in the air vs motion through the air. And the average airborne trooper does a very good PLF. A comparison to passengers on a bus is unfair and inapt.

Mark