ianmdrennan 2 #26 February 12, 2004 QuoteAnd just look at the Neptune threads...People were ordering them sight unseen. And they had issues didn't they? Not one that I'm aware of impaired safety in any way. All the "issues" were freefall times/speeds, etc. Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #27 February 12, 2004 >There have been issues with the 3 rings... Yeah, but I betcha you have them instead of a chrysalis or capewells. >And just look at the Neptune threads...People were ordering them > sight unseen. And they had issues didn't they? Mine's been fine. More accurate than a Protrack. >And lets look at the risk of getting the cool new toy over waiting. I agree that you should not get a new toy just because it's new. But I think it's also a mistake (for example) to refuse to jump an Amigo because it's new, and instead keep your MR150. Sure, the Amigo _might_ have the same problems, but chances are it won't. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with waiting for something new to show that it's reliable, provided the gear you have is working. You take a risk by trying something new. Sometimes there are risks in using old gear in hopes that the newer gear will "prove" itself before the old gear injures you, though. It's a judgement call. >Would you like to be the first guy killed by a new AAD? No more than I'd like to be the 10th person killed by an old AAD when a better one is available. I wouldn't buy an Astra, but I might just buy a Vigil, once I get more info on how it works (and perhaps take one apart.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #28 February 12, 2004 QuoteWould you like to be the first guy killed by a new AAD? Yeah, but the problem is even the "old toys" can still kill you. There have been 2 outs due to Cypres fires all the time, but when it happens it's(usually) because the guy was an idiot for pulling too low. It's not even an event that makes it into the mags most of the time. Unfortunately for Vigil when it happens to them, people are going to tear it apart because they're the new kids on the block. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 February 12, 2004 QuoteNot one that I'm aware of impaired safety in any way. All the "issues" were freefall times/speeds, etc Heres one. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=615286#615286 Here is another QuoteIt did not beep on his jump, although the display on the screen clearly indicates that it is set up as an audible. Then after landing, he could not access the menu screen (I can't either). Moreover, the function that shuts off the on-screen display after 30 mintues doesn't work either Hell here is one from you...An altemeter that resets itself is a safety issue. QuoteMore feedback on the neptune. This weekend I did a demo into a landing area 1000 ft higher than the dz and a 20 min plane flight. Just before take off I used the dz offset to set the elevation 1000 feet higher. The altitude display showed -1.0 as expected. After take off the neptune went into "plane" mode and the pilot leveled out at about 1100 feet above the take off point (alti read 0.1 as this point as expected). Within 10 mins (my guess is around 5 but I'm saying 10 to be safe) the neptune reset itself to the take off ground altitude (-1000) so when the pilot climbed again the read out was 1000 feet lower than expected. I know I could have used the neptune in manual mode (and will do so next time) but I was surprised it reset itself so quickly. Hell, just read that whole thread and it screams why you should not be the first with the new toys."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #30 February 12, 2004 QuoteYeah, but the problem is even the "old toys" can still kill you. There have been 2 outs due to Cypres fires all the time, but when it happens it's(usually) because the guy was an idiot for pulling too low. It's not even an event that makes it into the mags most of the time. Unfortunately for Vigil when it happens to them, people are going to tear it apart because they're the new kids on the block Yes, but when the CYPRES came out it was torn apart as well... Id rather have folks taking about it than ignoring the possible issues."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #31 February 12, 2004 Fair enough. It should be noted in their defense that there was an update for the reset issue, I just hadn't applied it yet. I guess I don't rely on the device so I didn't consider it as much of a safety issue as some would have. Blue skies, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 February 12, 2004 Quote>There have been issues with the 3 rings... Yeah, but I betcha you have them instead of a chrysalis or capewells. Yeah, but I was not the FIRST to have any of them. Quote>And just look at the Neptune threads...People were ordering them > sight unseen. And they had issues didn't they? Mine's been fine. More accurate than a Protrack Yes, but there were issues...Some were safety issues. Quote>And lets look at the risk of getting the cool new toy over waiting. I agree that you should not get a new toy just because it's new. But I think it's also a mistake (for example) to refuse to jump an Amigo because it's new, and instead keep your MR150. Sure, the Amigo _might_ have the same problems, but chances are it won't. 100% agree...But since my PD113 has no issues..I'll just keep it instead of getting an Amigo. Quote >Would you like to be the first guy killed by a new AAD? No more than I'd like to be the 10th person killed by an old AAD when a better one is available. I wouldn't buy an Astra, but I might just buy a Vigil, once I get more info on how it works (and perhaps take one apart.) Right now there is no problem with a CYPRES that is so bad that it would warent me getting an untried, un "real world" tested Vigil. Let me know how that thing looks at inside. Then and after a few mths or real world time I would think about it. But many good ideas killed folks......"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #33 February 12, 2004 QuoteFair enough. It should be noted in their defense that there was an update for the reset issue, I just hadn't applied it yet See it could have been a problem..And if you had waited a few mths..It would not have been an issue."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #34 February 12, 2004 QuoteBut many good ideas killed folks...... Very true, but so has doing something "the way I've always done it". There's nothing wrong with you choosing not to be the first on the block, but someone has to do it. Like Bill Booth said, if no-one bought anything new, we'd have no innovations. There's always room for improvement. Blue skies, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 February 12, 2004 QuoteVery true, but so has doing something "the way I've always done it". There's nothing wrong with you choosing not to be the first on the block, but someone has to do it. Like Bill Booth said, if no-one bought anything new, we'd have no innovations. There's always room for improvement Yep, but for me. I would rather have the sposored folks, test jumpers, and the new gear guys risk it. I'm in skydiving for the long haul...Dead sucks."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #36 February 12, 2004 peep this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=496056#496056 And do a search...it will give you reading for hours. Talk to a rigger you trust. PA had a web search engine that would tel you if yours has been fixed or had issues at all. Id rather just have a PD..I have had 6 rides on a 113, and it still has yet to blow up...And it swoops well"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #37 February 12, 2004 I was curious about the newly packed Vigil firing at the loft, right after cutter replacement, so I called Vigil in Belgium. They have inspected the suspect unit, and have found the cause. It seems that when the rigger closed the case after replacing the cutter, he inadvertently trapped a battery wire between the two havles of the case, crushing the insulation on that wire. The first time the rig was handled, the resultant short circuit fired the cutter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #38 February 12, 2004 QuoteMicro Raven.....Well who does not want a reserve that will blow up? Hey! As I've said before, quit bashing the wrong reserve! It's only the Dash M that had issues, not the microraven. Mine's going up for sale in about 2 weeks and I don't need bad info floating around! As far as the vigil, Bill Booth hasn't said very much about it here, but I heard, second hand, that Bill is a very big fan of the device and can point out specific design features that make it a better choice, assuming it has no unforseen design flaws, than the cypres. Feel like commenting? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #39 February 12, 2004 I've heard very good things about it from my rigger and some of the other peeps at my DZ Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #40 February 12, 2004 Thanks Bill, knowing is so much better than speculating. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #41 February 12, 2004 Thank-you from me as well Bill. The firing in the loft was not a design/manufacturing/algorithm issue. Makes me feel better about my decision to get one....which should be fairly soon when Kim has enough units on hand to ship my order. Ron, glad to be your test jumper -- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luis 0 #42 February 13, 2004 Quote ...The firing in the loft was not a design/manufacturing/algorithm issue.... well, that depends on how you look at it! I would expect the product to be designed/manufactured "foolproof" enough, so that it would be virtually impossible to trap any wires anywhere. Especially replacing the batteries I had Vigil in my hands only for a few moments and my first impression on general workmanship is quite good...hopefully good enough for all of us to have a Cypres alternative But I'm with Ron here - the device is just not mature enough and did not have enough field testing yet. That IMHO is also proven by the "battery wire trap misfire" incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #43 February 13, 2004 QuoteRon, glad to be your test jumper Thanks dude...you rock!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #44 February 13, 2004 Quote well, that depends on how you look at it! I would expect the product to be designed/manufactured "foolproof" enough, so that it would be virtually impossible to trap any wires anywhere. Especially replacing the batteries I had Vigil in my hands only for a few moments and my first impression on general workmanship is quite good...hopefully good enough for all of us to have a Cypres alternative But I'm with Ron here - the device is just not mature enough and did not have enough field testing yet. That IMHO is also proven by the "battery wire trap misfire" incident. That seems to be a bit of an overexpectation and a sad comentary on society as a whole. Manufacturers test and do what they can to make sure that simple things dont happen but still when you start letting the general population get their hands on "new things" people are going to find a way to mess it up. Miss-use is not something that the factory can control and I fnd it hard to blame them for this. If it turns out that the instructions need to be changed and dumbed down then do it but I have not seen them so cant comment on it. I am not saying that you should run out and buy a "New Toy" and I think Ron absolutly has the opinion that probably 90% of the jumpers have.. You may like the idea but dont want to be an "early innovator". Fine but I am sure there were little bumps with early cypress units. The big difference is that back when the cypress was really starting to come out the information superhighway was no where what it is now so information was not as easily dissimenated.. Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #45 February 13, 2004 QuoteQuote ...The firing in the loft was not a design/manufacturing/algorithm issue.... well, that depends on how you look at it! I would expect the product to be designed/manufactured "foolproof" enough, so that it would be virtually impossible to trap any wires anywhere. Especially replacing the batteries I had Vigil in my hands only for a few moments and my first impression on general workmanship is quite good...hopefully good enough for all of us to have a Cypres alternative But I'm with Ron here - the device is just not mature enough and did not have enough field testing yet. That IMHO is also proven by the "battery wire trap misfire" incident. Your point is well made and well taken....But I think this can be remedied easier than if there is a problem with the software or some weird hardware issue such as the Cypres problem with radio/cel phones (forget the details). Perhaps I am jumping the gun by getting one right away but I feel quite comfortable with these units based on what I have read about them and the work put into their design and development.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ethan 0 #46 February 15, 2004 I bought a Vigil, so I guess that can be one confirm sale! I also know of several other people at my club who have bought them. Surely compitition in a market can only make the product better and cheaper for the consumer. I saw a presentation on the Vigil a while back and have to say it looked very impressive. I looked at all the numbers and figures and was more than happy to buy one. When I started skydiving it was taking a leap into the unknown, I trusted all the information I was told by instructors as I knew know better. I see buying a Vigil the same way. What happened when the Cypres was first introduced, were these same questions and statement rasied then aswell. Who was the first person to jump with one?? If anyone knows what was the general opinon then. If it wasn't safe surely the FAA and CAA would not allow them to be jumped in the first place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #47 February 15, 2004 >If it wasn't safe surely the FAA and CAA would not allow them to be > jumped in the first place. The FAA has nothing (nada, zero, zilch) to do with certification, or approval of, AAD's. There are no standards they must meet. I could make an AAD out of legos and it would be perfectly legal to jump it, provided the rigger followed the manufacturer's (i.e. my) installation instructions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 February 15, 2004 QuoteWhen I started skydiving it was taking a leap into the unknown, I trusted all the information I was told by instructors as I knew know better. I see buying a Vigil the same way. Please open your eyes and think about things...don't just take the word of anyone when it comes to your life. QuoteWhat happened when the Cypres was first introduced, were these same questions and statement rasied then aswell. Who was the first person to jump with one?? If anyone knows what was the general opinon then They were met with the same type of resistance that I have now for the Vigil...The difference between now and then was; When I started skydiving an experienced person didn't want an AAD...They were dangerous...The would fire in the middle of a jump, and for other reasons when they were not supposed to. They CYPRES came out, and EARNED its reputation....Some of those that were skeptical (like me) eventually got one. Those that have never been without a CYPRES...Really don't think about all the bad things that AAD's were before. The ASTRA was another AAD that came out with great fanfare, but mostly fizzled out. I am not yet sure weather the Vigil will be an old AAD, earn its reputation like the CYPRES, or fade away like the ASTRA. I personally do not want to be the guy that gets killed due to a missfire, or buys the new thing that turns out to be less than half of its hype. So I will wait for the Vigil to prove itself."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 5 #49 February 15, 2004 QuoteSo I will wait for the Vigil to prove itself When there is something that is known to work,let the other people try the new stuff.If you did any kind of a risk assessment analysis you would come to the same conclusion.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
schwede 0 #50 February 16, 2004 Hi Kim, Yes, I like to use this forum to try to get answers on questions that sometimes I hear rumours about.. Like the one now with Vigil and misfires. It is funny though, to see how a thread suddenly change from AAD, to questions reg. new inventions of skydiving gear/accessories. I thank you for your open answer about the situation, but as someone said.. It would be interesting to know how many units now are in use.. As Beta units and in serialproduction. Mr Booth -thank you for clarifying the loft incidence. Kim, Will I see you at the Herc Boogie again??? Thank you all for your input in this issue...Schwede "Das Leben ist schön, nicht immer aber immer öfter" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
