ic1 jm1 cp1 cp2

[reddevil1 0]

If your missing <1> part of ic1,is ic1 void now to obtain b licence in the uk, do you have to do cp2 cp1 jm1 as well.

The point of no return what a rush.

[Zeemax 0]

taken from an e-mail i received today from our CCI

Changes to BPA Ops Manual - Canopy Handling / Canopy Piloting



THIS MAY AFFECT YOU!



"Parachutists who have not been awarded CP1 must NOT attempt unsupervised high performance / swoop landings"



Holders of CP1 must have their log book endorsed before attempting approach turns of more than 180°.



The full changes will be found in Section 2 of the Ops Manual.



To obtain A licence you now need CH grade 1 as well as Cat 8.

To obtain B licence you need CH grade 2 and JM1 (very similar to IC1)



To wing load over 0.85 you need CH1

To wing load over 1.1 you need CH2

To wing load over 1.4 you need CP1

To compete in swoop landings you need CP2



If you already wing load over these limits, or already do high performance landings you need to get the correct training and qualification. If you are already IC1 then you will be regarded as CH2.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[bch7773 0]

wow. jumping in the UK is apparently too complicated for me.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[reddevil1 0]

So is ic1 worthless now ,or can you tranfer ic1 parts eg ..Pre-declared lands x5 which have been signed for, or not,, into jm1 or do you have to do them all over again,what are the parts or jm1 now.

The point of no return what a rush.

[BikerBabe 0]

This is the funniest (or most bizarre) thread I've read in a while...

Obviously the official language of the BPA is not English...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[Zoter 0]

I'm a bit ashamed of this as a Brit.
Whilst taking steps to ensure better canopy piloting skills is a very very good thing.......the way it has manifested itself from....suggested rules...to practical implementation....has confused the hell out of alot of people...
( before I am flamed......I have read everything I can about the new BPA canopy piloting schemes/regs....listened to the lectures at the AGM and dont swoop anyways....so I have no axe to grind)
I just think...in a nutshell......its all just become so incredibly overbearing and confusing.
The balls to introduce better canopy piloting skills into our progression programs should be commended by the rest of the world.
The way its going to practically happen/be regulated is going to make us the laughing stock of the world
According to the 'rules'I am not allowed to fly the canopy I have been flying straight in ( no swooping) for over 150jumps without any landing incidents and rarely outside of a designated landing area.
Hot dog canopy ????......no ...........its a 215 square canopy !!!
EDUCATION NOT REGULATION !!!

[Plucky 0]

Are there any dates given for when this takes effect?

I'm guessing it's not enforced yet, or the bpa site (incl.
http://www.bpa.org.uk/progression.htm )would be updated?

[Zoter 0]

Headcorn has issued it 'rules'today.
I'm sure the other DZ'will do the same in the near future as they get around to dealing with it

[reddevil1 0]

So Headcorn new system ,other dz old system.in the uk.

The point of no return what a rush.

[JohnGraham 0]

Quote

To wing load over 0.85 you need CH1

To wing load over 1.1 you need CH2

To wing load over 1.4 you need CP1

Firstly these don't appear in the ops manual - I think they may be local rules for a particular DZ, I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong.
Second of all why should you need CP1 to load your canopy above 1.4??? Fine most of the people loading this high will be doing high performance landings but there are bound to be some who - for whatever reason - just want to load this high and are safe doing so - these people will then be FORCED to swoop!!!
I would think it would be more appropriate to have a max wing-loading that you can use for pre-CP1 supervised landings - that would make much more sense.

[JohnGraham 0]

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Are there any dates given for when this takes effect?

1st of June

[JohnGraham 0]

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So is ic1 worthless now ,or can you tranfer ic1 parts eg ..Pre-declared lands x5 which have been signed for, or not,, into jm1 or do you have to do them all over again,what are the parts or jm1 now.

Read the BPA Op's manual and it will tell you exactly what is in JM1. Basically the only requirements are that you do the specific things it says, if you've done them before but had them signed on a different peice of paper well, you've still done them.

[jas8472 0]

Quote

According to the 'rules'I am not allowed to fly the canopy I have been flying straight in ( no swooping) for over 150jumps without any landing incidents and rarely outside of a designated landing area.
Hot dog canopy ????......no ...........its a 215 square canopy !!!
EDUCATION NOT REGULATION !!!

The way I understand these new rules there is going to be a certain amount of 'grandad rights' and with your IC1 and a 'C' licence they wont effect you untill you want to start swooping.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

Second of all why should you need CP1 to load your canopy above 1.4??? Fine most of the people loading this high will be doing high performance landings but there are bound to be some who - for whatever reason - just want to load this high and are safe doing so - these people will then be FORCED to swoop!!!

CP1 is not all about swooping. It's about learning to control your canopy. That knowledge can be applied to swooping but it can also be applied to making sure you don't kill yourself on your canopy. Ie the things you learn or must know to obtain CP1 could just as easily be applied to not killing yourself during a panic turn for example.

Besides, as you said the CP1 for over 1.4 is not a national thing, just that DZ.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Your pre declaired landings count towards CH1/2 not the new JM rating. If you've done things as part of your IC1 like the old JM brief, practical and theoretical spotting and the flightline brief these things could count towards the new JM rating.

ie JM = the ground bits of the old IC1 system (plus a bit) while CH1/2 = the canopy bits of the old IC1 system (plus a bit). Quite logical really.

[Joellercoaster 6]

Quote

The way its going to practically happen/be regulated is going to make us the laughing stock of the world

This is true of almost all British regulation nowadays. It's not just skydiving, don't worry.

I haven't been living here terribly long, but good grief - the rules! Those on their own can be pretty funny, but the real gold is in the way those rules get expressed (as with the original post... awesome!).

What scares me is that the British are genuinely scared that Europe is going to impose needless regulation on their lives. I dunno, going on their own performance, I would've thought they'd be pleased...

[edit: does this mean I'm not *allowed* to fly anything smaller than a 250 until I get CH1 checked off? I reckon my exit weight would be around 210...]

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[reddevil1 0]

So is wing loading going to be part of the flight line check's,before boarding the plane ,.if you brake the wing load rules unknowly....eg /So if you put lead on and over load your canopy who check's

The point of no return what a rush.

[GeordieSkydiver 0]

I was reading the ops manual today, I like these new 'grades'.

The implementation of them will be a ball ache.

If they stop people from spanking themselves into the ground so often, then thats good.

As the stats show, most people get injured/dead under a perfect canopy.

This should go someway to correcting that.

Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

[Zeemax 0]

Quote

What scares me is that the British are genuinely scared that Europe is going to impose needless regulation on their lives.

Not that this is the place for it, but what do you mean by that? If this is reference to the 48 hour week, why shouldn't we be concerned. it will affect a great number of people.

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[Dazzle 0]

Quote

What scares me is that the British are genuinely scared that Europe is going to impose needless regulation on their lives. I dunno, going on their own performance, I would've thought they'd be pleased...

What we get scared of is eruope creates a new rule and then all the countries except us ignore it, our over zealous authorities then apply it ruthlessly and interpret it in ways that extend it.

[JohnGraham 0]

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CP1 is not all about swooping. It's about learning to control your canopy.

CP1 is ALL about high performance landings (read the manual and you will see this). Yes, HP landings go hand-in-hand with learning to control your canopy but CP1 is about swooping.

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That knowledge can be applied to swooping but it can also be applied to making sure you don't kill yourself on your canopy. Ie the things you learn or must know to obtain CP1 could just as easily be applied to not killing yourself during a panic turn for example.

So why not make everyone get CP1 before they get, for example their D-licence? I think you took my point a little the wrong way - the point I'm trying to emphasise is that those wanting to load higher than 1.4 will be forced to swoop in order to do so. Making it mandatory to learn more about canopy control that can, as you say, be applied to not killing yourself in a panic turn is one thing, but making it mandatory to swoop makes no sense to me at all. (btw have you read the CH manual? I'm pretty sure that flat turns as an avoidance maneuver is covered in CH2, maybe CH1 I'm not sure)

Quote

So is wing loading going to be part of the flight line check's,before boarding the plane ,.if you brake the wing load rules unknowly....eg /So if you put lead on and over load your canopy who check's

Ask the instructors at your centre about this, I know that checking that a person is jumping a "suitible" canopy is (should be) a part of the flightline checks at our centre already.

[Zoter 0]

Be careful....
I dont think CP1 is intended as ...'you must learn to swoop.....to get this grade'
There are plenty of us out there flying very very carefully with canopies loaded over 1.4....
I dont want or need to learn to swoop right now........
Forcing people to learn those'skills' in case of a 'panic turn' is not a good broad strategy........
Some people like to just fly and land their canopies accurately and in a conservative way....
Far from being penalised by the new regs.....this group should be encouraged

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

CP1 is ALL about high performance landings (read the manual and you will see this). Yes, HP landings go hand-in-hand with learning to control your canopy but CP1 is about swooping.

I have read the manual and been to the BPA seminars on the subject. CP1 is a prerequisite to swooping. SKILLS are a prerequisite it obtaining CP1. Obtaining CP1 ensures you have SKILLS. SKILLS reduce the likelihood of DEATH. CP1 is ALL about learning how not to DIE.

I'll give you it's all about how you want to spin it.

Quote

those wanting to load higher than 1.4 will be forced to swoop in order to do so

Have you read the manual? Can you point me to where in the manual the BPA require CP1 before allowing you to load your canopy above 1.4?

The BPA is not forcing anyone to obtain CP1. If you want to swoop you must have CP1 first. If you never want to swoop you don't have to even know about its existence. The BPA is not linking CP1 to wing loading... if a DZ does, that's down to the individual DZ not the BPA.

Quote

be applied to not killing yourself in a panic turn is one thing, but making it mandatory to swoop makes no sense to me at all. (btw have you read the CH manual? I'm pretty sure that flat turns as an avoidance maneuver is covered in CH2, maybe CH1 I'm not sure)

Yes I'm fully familiar with the manual and have had guidance on the subject above and beyond the manual alone. If you don't want to get CP1 don't get it. It only allows you to perform swoop landings anyway, nothing more. If your home DZ is linking it to wingloading and you don't like that, move, but don’t blame the BPA – they didn't create that rule.

BTW the first practical requirement of CH1 is 3 jumps using flat turns.

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making it mandatory to swoop makes no sense to me at all.

Just to emphasize this point; it is NOT mandatory to swoop. It is only mandatory to swoop if you want to swoop. If you want to swoop you have to obtain CP1 which includes swooping, but that surely wouldn't bother you – you're only obtaining the qualification to enable you to swoop.

If for some reason you don't want to obtain CP1 but want to learn the elements of it you believe are most associated with saving your life you can still obtain and practice those skills with coaching.

[achowe 0]

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Ask the instructors at your centre about this, I know that checking that a person is jumping a "suitible" canopy is (should be) a part of the flightline checks at our centre already.

Is it? Ive never been asked what canopy is in my container. Maybe it should be.

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Yes, HP landings go hand-in-hand with learning to control your canopy but CP1 is about swooping.

I disagree. You can learn to control your canopy without doing HP landings. I see myself as a safe canopy flyer and have spent lots of time learning to control it appropriately in all situations and have NEVER done or attempted a HP landing.

-------------------------------------------------
Woooaaaaaa!!! Woooaaaa!!! I'm gettin' off it!

[JohnGraham 0]

Quote

Be careful....
I dont think CP1 is intended as ...'you must learn to swoop.....to get this grade'
There are plenty of us out there flying very very carefully with canopies loaded over 1.4....
I dont want or need to learn to swoop right now........
Forcing people to learn those'skills' in case of a 'panic turn' is not a good broad strategy........
Some people like to just fly and land their canopies accurately and in a conservative way....
Far from being penalised by the new regs.....this group should be encouraged

I completely agree with almost everything you just said, except that I think CP1 is definitely intended as "you must swoop to get this grade" because the pre-requisites for obtaining CP1 specifically state that you need to perform "Safe, high performance landings" to obtain the CP1 grade.