Iamthebest_391 0 #1 March 28, 2004 Saw a tandem instructor student and experienced skydiver get dragged after jumping in 30 plus winds today. Other tandem instructor studend did the same. First one cutaway after getting dragged probably 25 yards, the other was caught by three guys or he would have gone farther. Why are there not wind limits on tamdems? And how much wind should you jump the so called students in? The Relativeworkshop examiner was there watching and just said nothing. Later they jumped the so called students and just cutaway when they landed. I am not jumping in winds like that. Should there be limits? G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #2 March 28, 2004 >Why are there not wind limits on tamdems? Because tandem masters are experienced jumpers and can decide for themselves whether the winds are too strong to jump in. >I am not jumping in winds like that. Should there be limits? Of course there should be. The limit for each TM is up to them. Two 200 lb jumpers under a 360 sq ft parachute will generally have a different limt than two 150lb jumpers under a 400 sq ft parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyclownUK 0 #3 March 28, 2004 Quote>Why are there not wind limits on tamdems? Because tandem masters are experienced jumpers and can decide for themselves whether the winds are too strong to jump in. Clearly not! It has been shown time and time again that tandems do need wind limits because commercial pressure can cloud their judgement on safety issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #4 March 28, 2004 Quote The limit for each TM is up to them. Two 200 lb jumpers under a 360 sq ft parachute will generally have a different limt than two 150lb jumpers under a 400 sq ft parachute. Boy do I disagree. Of course there should be a firm upper wind limit. There is no excuse for jumping a student in 30 mph winds, no matter what the suspended weight. Some instructors and DZO's are too focused on dollars and don't adequately respect the risk a student is exposed to. I'm starting to believe that students really need a consumer standard of some kind to protect them from programs that are just interested in grabbing their money and jumping in outrageously high winds, or doing other really stupid things. I've watched tandem instructors dump at 3,000 feet, watched them jump in high and turbulent winds then crash badly and get back on the next load, watched them do sick hook turns through crowds, watched them jump after drinking, watched them jump at night, watched them punch clouds by intent, watched them jump in such a fategued state that they couldn't even carry their own rig to the airplane. It's really crazy. USPA is dropping the ball on student protection. I believe that firmly. It really bothers me to hear of cases like the one that started this thread, and it bothers me to know nobody is working on the students behalf. Beyond that, only about 80 percent of drop zones belong to USPA, so 20 percent have almost no regulatory oversight at all, other than the very limited protection of FAR 105. Given the level of crazy local drop zone activity that jeopardizes student safety I'm beginning to believe skydiving should be regulated by consumer affairs departments at the state or local level, just like taxi drivers or hairdressers. We as an industry have really dropped the ball on advocating for and protecting student safety. Meaningful USPA regulation is a better solution, but our self interest as an industry won't let that happen. It's frustrating. Bill, I know your current experience is with a solid program and good DZ, and most DZ's are probably in that category. There are, however, quite a few students exposed to outrageous risk, and leaving the decisions completely up to the instructors who are incentivised to push limits is nuts. I hate to advocate for outside regulation, but it is beginning to seem necessary. I know that's an unpopular opinion and I'll get slammed pretty hard here, but don't our students deserve some level of protection? Don't they deserve some standard other than that created by a greedy local operator looking to generate a profit? Tom Buchanan Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem) Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and EasyTom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #5 March 29, 2004 When winds get up to 22 knots, turbulence gets nasty and I quit jumping. Dragging implies: 1) winds are too strong, B) catchers are incompetent, C) instructors never learned how to collapse their own canopies. Hint, 90% of the time I tell students to hold the toggles in their crotch after landing, then I reach up and grab an extra yard of steering line. Most of the time I can collapse the canopy - by myself - before the catchers can grab the steering lines. Oh and I usually land within 5 seconds (them running) of the catchers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #6 March 29, 2004 QuoteBeyond that, only about 80 percent of drop zones belong to USPA, so 20 percent have almost no regulatory oversight at all, other than the very limited protection of FAR 105. This may come as a shock to you but there are whole countries out here who exist without even 'the very limited protection of FAR 105.' government regulation of skydiving does nothing but make the industry unresponsive to change. The fifteen year or so delay in making the Tandem exemption permanent is a good example. The BPA's insistence on putting static line students out on rounds is another. (Is that still in place?) QuoteGiven the level of crazy local drop zone activity that jeopardizes student safety I'm beginning to believe skydiving should be regulated by consumer affairs departments at the state or local level, just like taxi drivers or hairdressers. We as an industry have really dropped the ball on advocating for and protecting student safety. Meaningful USPA regulation is a better solution, but our self interest as an industry won't let that happen. It's frustrating. If the industry has dropped the ball, how can you explain the brilliant reduction in fatalities for first time jumpers experienced over the last twenty years or so? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parafredo 0 #7 April 2, 2004 Tell me if I am wrong,but,why jumping a parachute when the winds are faster than the canopy's maximum forward speed?I am a TM and I just don't like to go backward on a jump.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #8 April 2, 2004 If I understand correctly, this was a tandem certification course involving experienced skydivers and I am only refering to that particular case. Tnis could have been a case of candidates trying to get their last certification jump or two in before the weather went to Hell and the course suspended which would require some to travel great distances to return at another time to complete. Not that makes it any safer but those guys do have the choice to jump or not. Having been a tandem examiner for eight years, two or three of the courses I ran had some adverse weather or time constraint situation occur that made it necessary to let the candidates make a personal decision as to what their limits were. Some continued, some didn't but it was their choice with my approval.The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #9 April 3, 2004 QuoteI am a TM and I just don't like to go backward on a jump.... I'm also a TM and I don't like it either. But I and my students survived a few of them without a scratch. One thing that is sure about the weather is that it will change. Sometimes that change happens faster than you anticipated. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
