Helmet vs. Cypres

[sducoach 0]

Wendy,

You have not responded to my other post however,
there does not need to be a...

Quote

I think that some people who use AADs as a standard piece of their defense might be glossing over the general situation that it takes a serious mistake to need one in the first place.

..........serious mistake made. Only an accident, medical situation, etc.

I agree that people can become "accessory dependent" but do not generalize us cypress, helmet, audible using skydivers as "dependent". Please.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[tbrown 26]

About a month ago I was glad to have both a helmet and a Cypres. I was just about to enter a slot in a round when someone dropped onto my back. At first I just thought "aw, shit", but then I got a really HARD smack on the back of the head, so hard that I think I said WTF out loud. I just saw a bright green jumpsuit tumble off me and when I saw him get stable I knew at least his lights were still on. The rest of the dive went to hell anyway in a funneled mess, but everybody opened, everyone lived, so it was okay. I had a headache though from the huge smack I'd taken. And I was glad to be wearing both a Bonehead AND a Cypres!

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[wmw999 2,439]

No, I haven't responded; but I do have a helmet, altimeter, audible, and cypres. Heck, I have my RSL hooked up. I don't think I'm anti-cypres by a long shot, and I don't see anyone who is. Just folks who don't want a blithe assumption that the Cypres will keep them safer, so there's a piece they no longer have to worry about.

Am I dependent on these things? Well, I got the audible to try out some freeflying; I'd heard it was pretty much mandatory. I got the cypres because it seemed like a good idea. I generally pull a little high if I jump without an altimeter, so obviously I'm not a dead-on judge of altitude or time.

There have been a couple of threads about people increasing risks in new areas (canopy, swooping) as they're mitigated in older dangers (low cutaway, no pull). I think that's a pity, and I think it's a pity that people think it was unacceptably unsafe in all ways how jumping was done in the past. It wasn't.

I realize I haven't resolved anything. I'm an INTP, I don't resolve things .

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

Quote

I agree that people can become "accessory dependent" but do not generalize us cypress, helmet, audible using skydivers as "dependent". Please.

J.E.

If you will not jump without them...Then you ARE dependant..by definition.

If you have them but would jump without them...then you are not dependant.

It really is that simple.

And dependance is not really my issue..Substituting a cool saftey toy for training...Well that is my issue.

It does not apply to everyone...But it applies more to the device dependant than the others.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[sducoach 0]

Ron,

Right there with you Brother!

I buy insurance, not skill, when I purchase and use one of these items.

As I've stated before, "experinece is something you gain 10 seconds after you needed it."

Educate!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Interesting chat, sorry for coming in late.
I don't see how wearing an AAD, helmet, audible (or two) can detract from a skydive so I wear them. I'm lucky in that I can afford them.
I would say that I am equally as dependent on things like audibles, as I am on my own vision, or traditional altitude management devices.
In the UK we get to jump through clouds, so I would guess we have a better case for wearing audibles.
Just to throw some more into the debate.... One could draw parallels in that say,driving a volvo, with airbags, and seatbelts etc makes you a safer driver.
Not really, it just means you are more likely to survive a brain fart or someone elses.....
And I can't really see you trading in your Harley for a Volvo.

It has been said that Cypres took away natural selection from skydiving, but HP canopies put it back.....

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[mathias 0]

I don't see how wearing an AAD, helmet, audible (or two) can detract from a skydive so I wear them.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
An AAD can fire prematurely and therefore cause a multitude of problems.
A helmet can lead to injuries that wouldn't have happened without it.

I jump both an AAD and a helmet.
But I do know what the drawbacks are.

Ingen minns en fegis!

[Praetorian 1]

Quote

A helmet can lead to injuries that wouldn't have happened without it.

I'm not gonna say your wrong because your not, there are case where a helmet can make things worse or even hurt you when you would not have been hurt with out it (hard opening causing a sore neck comes to mind) the same sort of arguements have been made time and time again about seatbelts ... but in Most cases most of the time helmets will lessen injury and in the odd cases like where the helmet caused a broken neck that wouldn't have been there otherwise the neck wouldn't have broken because the skull exploding would have absorbed the impact protecting the neck nicely

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[OnYourBack 0]

It wouldn't matter one bit to my mom if I always wore a full suit of armor, had two cypresses and an altimeter on both wrists, always deployed by five grand and never flew less than 300 square feet in less than 5 mph wind.

To her if you leave the ground your unnecessarily risking your life.

Know your limits, study hard to expand them. For anyone to call it crazy to jump without a helmet and cypress, I say to you like I say to my mom about jumping, "then don't do it." There is no shame in following your instincts. However, don't place limitations on me because I'm operating outside of your comfort zone.

Not that you were suggesting rules. This thread just got me to thinking.

[chaoskitty 0]

I know a very good jumper who would be dead if they were not wearing a helmet AND a cypres on one particular jump. The incident was completely unpredictable and was not caused by recklessness.
(Actually.. I take that back.. if they didnt have a helmet on, then the cypres would have served no purpose other than getting the rest of the body to the ground in a tidy fashion. But if they had a helmet and no cypres.. the helmet alone wouldnt have saved them).

The helmet serves a purpose by simply keeping my hair out of my face and eyes. I hope to never have a hard landing, but if I do, I'll be wearing a helmet and it might help some.
I view the cypres just like a seat belt in the car. Its there for one purpose. You hope to never need it, but you want it to do its job.
I'll keep jumping both.. and avoiding making them work as much as possible.

[flypunk 0]

both nice to have, not necessary, except when you need em ya' know. Kinda like airbags and abs on cars. What would you choose between those....

without abs the airbags would come in handy, but with abs the airbags are not so necessary huh? then again can you drive safely without either, Yes, it was done for years its just an added safety feature can you get in an accident even by having them.... yes they are not a substitute for driving skill. Can they cause an accident or kill you.. yes premature airbag deployment, excesive force etc, abs not engaging....

Will they prevent you from dying in case of an accident... maybe. Can you prevent and accident from happening so that you don't need them... maybe.


Now if you want to complicate it more add wingloading on reserve to the equation....

...

[Reginald 0]

This is an interesting discussion. I wear a full-face helmet and have decided after only 75 jumps that I would be very hard pressed not to jump with one for some time. I don’t feel it will help on a hard landing so much since I am more afraid of breaking my back than smashing my head, but of course flying a 190 that is not as much of an issue for me as some of the people flying highly loaded canopies. I wear a helmet because I have had my head banged into several times in the plane by other people and by the door, etc. I would have several dozen stitches in my head had I not been wearing a real hard helmet. Sorry, but a frap hat won’t do much of anything but keep your hair in place. I also feel in RW work a good full-face helmet is a smart idea. Particularly for a low timer like me, and jumping with other low timers. There is always a bit of bumping around on exit.

Will I jump without a helmet? Sure. My first helicopter jump was in jeans, a tee shirt and no headgear but a pair of goggles. It was cool! Will I climb on an Otter with 20 other people and jump a RW formation without one? Hell no.

As for AAD’s? I wear one. I use it and I would prefer not to jump without it. I just think that for a low timer it is a good idea. When I have 10,000 jumps I might think otherwise. But in the mean time the very minimal risk it adds is immaterial in comparison to the risk it reduces. So I plan on ever needing it? Hell no!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP