FAR's and wingsuit landing w/o a parachute?

[AndyMan 7]

Just for the record, according to Ski Magazine, as example: a popular speed skiing course maxes out at 52 degrees, but averages only 45. Typical "black diamond" are less than 40. Of course, these runs are rarely straight, and never flat.

http://www.skimag.com/skimag/travel/article/0,12795,365362,00.html

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,991]

>Groud effect will take place only for a height equal to the wingspan of the
>vehicle... that's not very high off the ground... and it's ADDED lift.

Right, which means that he will have to be prepared to dump some of his lift to achieve a landing on a slope that closely matches his glidepath.

> The jumper will NOT experience a traumatic impact upon said touchdown.

Again, that's easy to say, hard to guarantee. I've landed airplanes from C152's to Otters, and it's taken me a few tries to get the landings down on them. And airplanes are a LOT easier to land than wingsuits - they have both landing gear and power available, and a second seat so a more experienced pilot can show you how to do it a few times.

To compare it in difficulty to something, imagine making many many jumps under a 25 sq ft canopy, but always cutting it away and then landing under a round parachute. Then on one jump you decide to not cut it away and land it on a no-wind day. Think you could do that safely, having never landed a ram-air canopy before? After all, all you have to do is get your vertical speed to zero . . .

>So your argument is still that the angle of the landing area doesn't
>matter (For the final time) ?

It does not matter when it comes to attenuating his impact. The ONLY thing that matters when it comes to impact is how fast the closing rate is. Choosing a slope that is easy to match in a wingsuit will help him minimize his closing rate. But if he comes in at 15mph perpindicular to the slope, it won't matter what the slope is.

[GaryP 0]

Someone said in a prior post that it may be that Jeb (or whoever) will choose a track running slightly across a particular slope. This way he could adjust his track left or right (up or down) as another way of matching the relative approach speed to the ground. This would also give the option of aborting the run by just turning down-slope and therfore moving away from the ground.

It would also give more choices for a selection of a suitable LZ.

Sorry I couldn't find the post to credit the author but I thought I'd bring it up again given all the talk of finding the perfect slope.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[goose491 0]

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>Ground effect will take place only for a height equal to the wingspan of the
>vehicle... that's not very high off the ground... and it's ADDED lift.

Right, which means that he will have to be prepared to dump some of his lift to achieve a landing on a slope that closely matches his glidepath.

What it means is that he will have a two-staged "dump" (for lack of a more delicate word?... I prefer "adjustment") of his lift.

What it means is, that if he matches the slope of the landing strip, say 6 feet above it, then adjusts to sink on said landing strip at a slow rate, he will be given an apparent increase in lift at about midpoint or 3 feet above the strip.

It would be like an apparent 'air cushion' for him. He'll either end up matching the slope again (for him to adjust a second time closer to the ground) or it will simply reduce his sink rate a little more for the remaining 3 feet to impact.

IOW, he won't have to worry about bouncing off said 'air cushion' because that's not how it works. The best you can expect from ground effect when landing a non-powered aircraft is that it slows your sink rate, or stops it alltogether.

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Choosing a slope that is easy to match in a wingsuit will help him minimize his closing rate.

It's the only thing that will help him minimize his closing rate. Because he cannot mainain anything close to horizontal flight.

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But if he comes in at 15mph perpindicular to the slope, it won't matter what the slope is.

This much is obvious. lol. And the jumper would not be very wise to come in perpendicular the slope (remember, we are aiming for parrallel it) But again, it's not what we are discussing. But we've decided that 15mph is his vertical speed.

Vertical speed will be Vy=15mph, the speed he comes in at PERPENDICULAR the slope we will call Vy-slope. Where "z" is the angle the landing slope makes against vertical,

Sin z = Vy-slope / Vy

Vy Sin z = Vy-slope

15 Sin z = Vy-slope


Circles... from my last post:

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Your speed is ZERO perpendicular to the surface as you have matched the glide slope.

Your speed PERPENDICULAR the surface will be a funcion of the smallest increment you can ajust your sink rate by.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[rsibbald 0]

So, once someone has managed this stunt, what will be next? Anyone fancy trying to land a sky-surf board onto a ski jump from 15,000ft?

[pilotdave 0]

Are there any wingsuits/jumpers capable of maintaining a 15 mph rate of descent? I doubt it. Not that it really matters since none of us have any clue how he actually plans to do it.

I tried to get it out of him... Jeb's reply to me was just "I wish I could tell you :)". Seems like a nice guy... I hope he chooses green jello. It's softer than red.

Dave

[goose491 0]

Oh yeah!

And as per Lawrence M. Patrick, retired Wayne State University biomechanics professor who gave his body for human impact-survival research from 1960 -1975:

"The maximum amount a rib cage can compress without causing injury to the soft wet things inside it is two and three-quarter inches."

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[GaryP 0]

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I tried to get it out of him... Jeb's reply to me was just "I wish I could tell you :)". Seems like a nice guy...

Jeb is a really nice guy. He is extremely focused on BASE & wingsuit flying, loves all things black, abstains from coffee, alcohol, ciggs, sugar, food additives and if anyone could pull this off I would certainly think he has a good shot at it.

He also has Divine Power on his side - he once told me he'd consider a Biblical name if he was ever to sire a boy. "Matthew? Luke? John?" I asked...."Satan" he replied.

All this talk - "will he? won't he?" reminds me of a time when we thought that freefallin 250' was not possible, that 130SqFt is the smallest canopy flyable, that a 100way could never be built and so on. This WS landing is not far from being achieved, it's human nature to pursue it and so can't help but think it's gonna happen - someday. Loic-Jean has show us how much closer we are to this end. Of course there's still some hurdles to overcome but I don't think it's outside the realm of current technologies.

Good luck Jeb!
g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[Hooknswoop 19]

So can we agree that if he lands on a slope, he can get into ground effect then slowly ease it down to contact and have almost zero impact? He will still be sliding, but that is survivable without injury. Sounds very possible to me.

Derek

[linestretch 0]

I agree that with certain variables, this is VERY doable.....and probably survivable. I want it to happen, and would love to see it.

My question for the forum was how do you think the FAA will see it....or will this have to be done outside the US, or will waivers be filed....or is someone going to do this un-announced.

I had to do a paper for a bullshit class, and this was my subject. How will the local authorities see this if there is a death?....homocide? Shutting down the airport and all skydiving associated with it? And what about sue-happy america. This guy's intentions are planned. But what if there is a death. Will his immediate family sue?

I'm not saying any of this will happen, they are just 'possible' ramifications that I came up with.

Now discuss.....

my pics & stuff!

[goose491 0]

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My question for the forum was...

Bwahaa!

Just mention "landing" and "wingsuit" in the same sentence and look what happens!

Okay. "It's always better to beg for forgiveness than it is to ask permission."

I would wager they'd be scratching their heads just as much as us? That when it comes down to the nitty gritty, there's not much in the regulations that deal with jumping out of airplanes without the intent of using some sort of equipment to save ones life.

For the pilots, the rules dictate that they can't drop stuff that will cause harm and that they can't drop stuff at all where people are without the permision of a governing body.

For the jumpers, the rules dictate the gear that is required.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LouDiamond 1]

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there's not much in the regulations that deal with jumping out of airplanes without the intent of using some sort of equipment to save ones life.

My guess is they would spend far less time than we have on this thread and declare it a suicide based on this part of your sentence: "without the intent of using some sort of equipment to save ones life"

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[goose491 0]

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Are there any wingsuits/jumpers capable of maintaining a 15 mph rate of descent? I doubt it.

No, the slowest recorded (as per BirdMan's site) is 16m/s which is about 35-36mph. The slowest Instantaneous speed recorded was 18mph.


But It's all realative. There is a certain glide slope required to achieve even this 35mph. When you have a landing area that matches this certain glide slope, the important thing is no longer "How slow can I make my decent rate" but "How small an increment can I increase my decent rate by?".

Don't forget that there is a forward vector as well. As you move forward, the landing area constantly "Drop away".. because that's what a slope is... y changes as x changes.

The speed at which the jumper will impact perpendicular the sloped landing area is not a function of his vertical speed. It's a function of the little extra vertical speed he can add.... to 'catch up' to the ever retreating ground.

So that's the question. If you can ajust your vertical speed by say 5mph at a time, then the speed you will impact the ground PERPENDICULAR to it will be:

Vyslope = 5 Sin z

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I hope he chooses green jello. It's softer than red.

You make Jello by adding stuff to water... So it's denser than water... so it's harder than water to impact... hmmm. Though a GIANT cube of jello would have the ability to expand out the sides that a large body of water wouldn't. I have dreamed of jumping off bridges into a giant cube of jello, lol.

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Not that it really matters since none of us have any clue how he actually plans to do it.

I've pictured it using a series of nets that he could fly into as well. They could be desinged to stretch and fail, allowing him to plow into the next one, wich would stretch and fail, allowing him to plow into the next one.... each net absorbing some of the kinetic energy... eventually, the jumper would not have enough and one of the last nets would actually hold him.

(The nets would have to be made to order by ACME and he would have to hold up a picket which read "Help!" though... much ala Wile E. Cayote.)

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kallend 2,027]

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You make Jello by adding stuff to water... So it's denser than water...

Ummm - bad science there.

Jello is based on gelatin, a loosely cross-linked polymer that forms a gel with water.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

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You make Jello by adding stuff to water... So it's denser than water...

Ummm - bad science there.

Jello is based on gelatin, a loosely cross-linked polymer that forms a gel with water.

And Wile E. Cayote really wasn't a Genius.


Gelatin is a protein which has a distinct shape. The proteins like eachother and grab one another. When gelatin gets wet and warmed up, it get's limp. The building blocks fall apart. When the gelatin cools again, the proteins go back into their shape. But now they have trapped a drop of the liquid.

So Jell-O is no more than protein that has trapped a bit of water. Proteins are building blocks. They get their strength from getting tangled up tightly in each other again.

Jell-O is denser than the water you used to make it with.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[kallend 2,027]

It's bad science to say that because you add stuff to water, then the result is denser than water. Like in this sentence:

"You make Jello by adding stuff to water... So it's denser than water..."

If I add olive oil to water, then the resulting emulsion is less dense than water.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[goose491 0]

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It's bad science to say that because you add stuff to water, then the result is denser than water.

Thanks Kallend,

"Stuff" is not a very good scientific term for Solid Proteins... neither is "Adding Stuff" in place of creating an emulsion between liquid and solid forms. lol. We've now posted a pretty good explanation how Jello is made... a little more complexe than "adding stuff to water"... a little less relevant then...

Jell-O is denser than water.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[pilotdave 0]

But surely you agree that green jello is less dense than red jello, and therefore more appropriate for a wingsuit landing. Ok, if density is really all that matters, Jeb should land on a solid block of ice, since it's less dense than liquid water.

Dave

[kallend 2,027]

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But surely you agree that green jello is less dense than red jello, and therefore more appropriate for a wingsuit landing. Ok, if density is really all that matters, Jeb should land on a solid block of ice, since it's less dense than liquid water.

Dave

I'd suggest aerated ice, which is even less dense because you added stuff (air) to it. Like SNOW.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Erroll 80]

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But surely you agree that green jello is less dense than red jello, and therefore more appropriate for a wingsuit landing. Ok, if density is really all that matters, Jeb should land on a solid block of ice, since it's less dense than liquid water.

Dave

I'd suggest aerated ice, which is even less dense because you added stuff (air) to it. Like SNOW.

SNOW on a SLOPE then.

[LouDiamond 1]

Now all you need to add is a little food coloring and some sugar syrup and you've got a big Snow cone landing area. It all makes sense now.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[goose491 0]

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Now all you need to add is a little food coloring and some sugar syrup and you've got a big Snow cone landing area. It all makes sense now.

So to bring it all back to the original poster, we alleviate a pilot of all responsibility by firing the wingsuit jumper into the air with a catapult and we ensure the jumpers survival by building him a giant Lime Jell-O Snow Cone landing area with tons of 'stuff' added to it for scientific softness.

BRILLIANT!

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[pilotdave 0]

Close, but it's important to note that it should NOT be sugar-free jello. Those chemicals could be dangerous if injested, and might not taste as good.

Dave

[goose491 0]

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Close, but it's important to note that it should NOT be sugar-free jello. Those chemicals could be dangerous if injested, and might not taste as good.

Yeah. But don't you think landing a wingsuit would be sweet enough as it is?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[LouDiamond 1]

AAHHH but you see thats where it gets dangerous. With all the friction thats bound to be generated by the pilot once he lands on our green jello snow cone surface, that there will undoubtedly be a carmalization and crystalization of the sugar. if things DON"T go as planed there could be a fire generated by the rapidly heated sugar content. So now we must factor for the temperature that sugar becomes unstable and what effect if any the cool temperature of the green jello snow cone will have on this.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING