Round or Ram-air Reserve?

[Smeger 0]

Please could I get some advice as to which is the safer reserve choice round or square canopy, thanks. DZ.com rules .

[mr2mk1g 10]

Simple answer is ram-air.

There's a little bit of a debate about what's safer for first time jumpers but I think I'm ok saying most people would still recomend a ram-air reserve... most people.

For the experianced jumper... definately it's ram-air all the way.

Rounds have different wind limits - you'll find yourself stood down when everyone else is jumping.
Rounds are have less directional range - you might find yourself low, over obsticles and unable to find a safe landing area with a round reserve.
Have you ever been trained to use a round? They're a different canopy - they have different malfunctions and different ways of flying them... why would you jump something you've not been trained to use?

Buy a ram air reserve.

• Quote

[Smeger 0]

I haven't yet. Going for the AFF this summer. I'm UK, so I won't see the sun till June. Just learning as much as possible before I get started, won't be such a shock to take in all the info straight away. I've found different opinions on the matter thats all. I heard that a round is less likely to mal than a square, simply because of its shape. I have know idea whether thats true or not? Just wanted to get some expert advise from both sides. I'm thinking now that round yeah to open, but if I'm stuck over a power grid or something, then its bbq time.

[mr2mk1g 10]

You're obviously hungry for info. Take a look at this: http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/skydiving.htm

It's not horribly innacurate.

There are a few errors but in general its a fairly good overview.

Remember nothing is a substitute for paying attention on a first jump course. Prior reading is a good thing... so long as it doesn't detract from you shutting up and listening hard to what your instructor has to say. There's few things more dangerous than a student who thinks they know everything because they've been reading up on things.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I wouldn't fret it too much, your instructors will train you in the use of the equipment favoured at that particular dropzone. Its not as if you will be given much of a choice on reserve types.

I'm going to assume you intend to train at Sibson, as its very local to you. Sibson has a pretty good reputation, you'll be fine.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Tonto 1]

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I heard that a round is less likely to mal than a square, simply because of its shape.

Wrong. Rounds have several malfunction modes such as inversions and lineovers that were so prevalent that reserves differed significantly from the mains of the day. And lets not start down the "Acid mesh" road. Acid? On round reserves? You betcha!

Not so with square reserves, which for a time, in fact, until the advent of ZP, shared near identical charecteristics of their main counterparts.

This was a debate 15 to 20 years ago. I know the UK lags on these issues and was, until recently, still using round parachutes for training 1st jumpers. Even in Africa we moved away from that 15 years ago. There is, in my opinion, no justification for use of a round reserve in run of the mill skydiving these days.

An old saying from "Back in the day" was

"A round will get you down but a square will get you there."

If you jump a square main, would you really like to be on completely unfamiliar gear that you have never flown or landed before after your 1st mal?

It's the year of the Pig.

[Amazon 7]

Hmmm lets see

5 round reserve rides... even with good spots never came even close to the pea gravel..

2 Square reserve rides.... both of them landed in the peas..


Get a nice BIG square.... when the time comes to use it.. you will be a lot happier.

Many a day I sat out from jumping due to the possibility of having to use my reserve.. and landing BACKWARDS under a round.. with wind of more than 10 mph... makes doing a PLF really hard.. its usually 3 points of contact ( Feet-Butt-Head) instead of the preferred 5 points of contact for a good PLF.


Edited to ADD


But Tonto dear.. I have at least 5 serviceable rigs with 26' Lopo's.. and one with a Phantom 24' and 2 belly warts...

Ok.. so I consider them only as water jump rigs.. but hey.. think of the nice cool SPLASH you could make uner them

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"even with good spots never came even close to the pea gravel.. "

Pah, 3 round reserve rides here, 2 in the peas (one of those from 11 grand!), one very close to the river.

Neener, neener....






I hit the peas more by luck than design though. Also, I'd rather not be under a 24ft lopo ever again, I'm not a wee guy!......thank gawd for good PLF training

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Amazon 7]

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one very close to the river.

I did not mind my 24' reserve ride.. it was a water landing in Biscayne Bay...the main.. a 28' C-9... was a BIG ole Mae West.. about as purty a 50% 180 Inversion you ever saw... a nice spinner.. so I was happy to get rid of it. .. And a nice splash too..

[BIGUN 1,418]

Both have their positives and negatives. Contrary to some opinions, both have as much opportunity to have a malfunction as the other, just as both have about the same opportunity to cause injury if landed improperly.

My personal opinion is that I like teaching square reserves because I only have to teach one way of canopy control and landings rather than two separate classes for this reason - it's going to be a lot of information for a student in the first jump course; why add more.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[feuergnom 29]

if there is one thing would never want to mix it's a round reserve with a ram-air main -----» considering that you didn't even start jumping yet i will not go into any details, but i'm sure you will ask your teachers about it. they will provide you with the all the info you will need and are able to handle

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[lowie 0]

I imagine a 2 out situation would be a bit safer. With no real forward speed the main would tend deflate similar to a paraglider after the round reserve is deployed and could be gathered in. If the main wasnt gathered in it could make for an interesting ride down.

[councilman24 37]

"Acid mesh" degradation is not reserved for round reserves. (Pun intended) It was never JUST the acidic mesh. Of two panels next to the same piece of mesh, one could be bad and one good. There was always a fabric or other component to the problem never identified.

But, I recently had a ram air reserve just as degraded as any "acid mesh" round canopy. The problem of fabric degradation had NOT been solved.

That being said there are very few square reserves which have demonstrated this degradation.

There ARE situations where I might rather have a round reserve, but by far I'd prefer a square. And of course have three square reserves. The round reserves are used as mains.

A rigger for the USAPT in 1989 put it this way, "If you open a round reserve your STILL in an emergency situation."

BTW last summer I put a Phantom 28 (as a main) into a 40' pea pit from 5000'. Hadn't jumped a round since 1985 but I've got about 300 round jumps.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 643]

I heard that a round is less likely to mal than a square, simply because of its shape. I have know idea whether thats true or not?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Not!

I have made less than 80 jumps with round parachutes and suffered 3 malfunctions (1/25).

I have also made more than 4500 jumps with ram-air parachutes, while suffering 15 malfunctions (1/300). Mind you, the majority (13/15) of my ram-air malfunctions were on first-generation tandems, canopies that are no longer in popular usage. My last mal' was on a main canopy that never sold very well (Diablo).
With modern ram-air parachutes, most people average one malfunction per 700 jumps (1/700), but neat packers often go 2,000 jumps before their first malfunction (1/2,000).

[ryoder 1,590]

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I imagine a 2 out situation would be a bit safer. With no real forward speed the main would tend deflate similar to a paraglider after the round reserve is deployed and could be gathered in. If the main wasnt gathered in it could make for an interesting ride down.

Been there; Done that.

The main opened first, then the reserve opened like a drag chute behind me. Next, the main swung down 90 degrees, stopping directly in front of me, as the reserve swung up from behind to the normal position directly overhead. Once in this position, the main was happy to stay where it was, with a few ounces of tension on each line. I daisy-chained the lines, and stuffed the main between my legs. Last, I released the 4-line-release on the reserve. I suspect things might have been messier with a reserve that had drive slots.

The reason for the accidental reserve opening: Crossbow container.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,590]

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Please could I get some advice as to which is the safer reserve choice round or square canopy, thanks. DZ.com rules .

The day I found myself opening a reserve at 1000', in a 12 mph wind, over a huge housing addition, full of fences, trees, utility lines, and tiny yards, i did not find myself thinking: "Gee, if only I had bought a round reserve!"

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[feuergnom 29]

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I imagine a 2 out situation would be a bit safer.

and i bet a lot of that you wouldn't want to find yourself in exactely that situation _ever!

again: i will not elaborate on this any further

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Designer 0]

Something to consider.I have heard "Horror" stories of people(have witnessed it also)of jumpers getting caught in a "Fast Moving Summertime Severe Thunderstorm"!Yikes,the big "Yikes" the ram-air mains would not stay "Inflated".Only thing that saved the poor suckers was a "Round Reserve"rob

[RogerRamjet 0]

I can think of two advantages of round reserves vs. square.

1) Two out situation as stated, the main just falls below and is easy to deal with. No down plane to worry about.

2) Unconscious or disabled AAD opening. If you are unconscious or disabled, I would think the 3 to 5 mph canopy speed would be better for you.

That said, I had one malfunction on a round in 350 jumps 1/350 and no mals on squares in 650 jumps 0/650. The reserve used on the mal was a 26' Navy Conical (mostly round).

Question: If you elect to jump a round reserve today, are there free bags for them? The free bag seems like the way to go, but I've been out for a long time....

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[billvon 3,072]

Square for most cases.

If you have no CRW training, and you really bought an AAD "in case you get knocked out" then a round reserve may be your best bet. It will do a better job during a two-out situation, and it will land you more survivably if you're unconscious. Make sure to size it correctly; a 26' round doesn't work for everyone.

[Kris 0]

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if there is one thing would never want to mix it's a round reserve with a ram-air main -----»

Completely and utterly false.

While a round isn't desireable these days, it's the safest thing to have in case of a 2-out or an unconscious landing.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[slug 1]

Hi R&R

Third advantage of round reserve vs sq. PRICE

I'm guessing there's a lot of used round reserves in vg condition that could be bought dirt cheap

R.I.P.

[Avion 0]

I have had this conversation with a good number of experienced people, through which several points have come to light.

Round Good Points:

1) Will let let the jumper down easier than a square if they are unconcious.

2) Are better in a two out situation, downplane proof.

3) Have good dependability, if it has anti-inversion netting.


Round Bad Point:

1) Are usually built for low speed static line deployment, and could be disasterous if deployed at high speed. A round designed to use a freebag and prehaps a slider would help with this.

2) Are much less steerable.

3) Manufacture of sport rounds has been discontinued. Virtually everybody wants squares.


A sport round with netting was once made, and then was subsequently ignored. Personally, I like them, but their are some design issues that need to be addressed to make them acceptable for modern sport use. That of course is presuming a sufficient market could be found for them so that at least the R&D costs could be recovered.

Cheers

[RogerRamjet 0]

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1) Are usually built for low speed static line deployment, and could be disasterous if deployed at high speed. A round designed to use a freebag and prehaps a slider would help with this.

My round was a 26' Navy Conical designed for ejection seats. I don't think it would have had any problems with high speeds nor is it prone to inversion problems (though it had no netting).

Rounds with freebags, are there any? What is required to make a freebag work with a round?

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[obelixtim 150]

There are an amazing number of posts I've read here that are full of inaccuracies and misinformation.....

There is no way in hell that a roundie is superior to a square on normal skydiving operations.....period.....apart from cost.....and that is the worst possible criteria to use when deciding what to get...

Perhaps the only time a roundie might be "safer" would be during CRW, and then mainly as a hand deployed tertiary (third) canopy, or as a tertiary on test jumps or intentional cutaways.....or low level base jumps.... or military low level ops....not your run of the mill skydives....

There are several reasons why a square is much better than a roundie.....from jump #1 to infinity....

1. Freebag....much safer in 2 out situation....or a failure to cutaway a mal situation....

2. Controllability/steering/landing.....infinitely superior...

3. Reliability....much more likely to open cleanly and quicker....and "if" you are out cold at the time, your descent will be fine because your brakes will still be set.....and there is no inherent malfunction mode, like a lineover.....

A square is the best for Joe and Jane Jumper.......believe it.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....