What can we do about the USPA.....

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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Skyride appears to be operating in a fraudulent manner that damages legitimate dropzones. It thus becomes an issue to skydivers who need access to DZs. It thus becomes USPA business.

If skyride is stealing business from dropzones, those dropzones need to do something about it with their money. They are protecting their business.

Kris.

[PhreeZone 20]

Yes, that is true.

Any one remember the effects that the 20/20 story had on skydiving in about '96 ish? I was still in high school but was looking into jumping and lurked Rec. at that time every once and a while. All it takes is a story like that and you'll have a wave of DZ's closing. Keeping DZ's from committing fraud and harming the general consumer is important for all skydivers since with out new jumpers the sport will fade out.

The mission of the USPA is to help keep Skydivers Skydiving. If there are no DZ's it makes it really hard to keep jumping.

I guess the USPA should withdrawl assistance for those DZ's having airport and air access issues. Its their business, not the USPA's to fight their battles. The USPA should also quit helping to get STC's for jump plane operators since its their business to do that and not the USPA's. USPA also needs to ignore extending the repack cycle since its not actually heling keep you in the air, you already can do that. Also they should quit assisting the tandem manufactors in getting the FAR's reworked since tandem students are'nt USPA members right?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freakbrother 0]

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Skyride appears to be operating in a fraudulent manner that damages legitimate dropzones. It thus becomes an issue to skydivers who need access to DZs. It thus becomes USPA business.

If skyride is stealing business from dropzones, those dropzones need to do something about it with their money. They are protecting their business.

Kris.

And USPA members are protecting the places they go to jump. Do you like jumping at SDC? Like their jump ticket prices? (I know the answer). Skyride has one of its BOGUS dropzones shown right there on its map. Are YOUR interests served if SDC and Hinckley are defrauded out of income?

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www.freak-brother.com

[ninjaswooper 0]

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It has been reported that the USPA is becoming involved with the "SkyRide Issue".

That would be an abuse of the members dues.

Not really. Since I am a memeber and I contacted my USPA rep and asked what was being done, asked that more be done, and offered some suggestions to would could be done. Because quite honestly, skyride hurts me by giving my DZ and my favorite sport a bad name. Guilt by association is not ideal, but its a reality.

So, since I jump at a skyride supported DZ and am a member of the USPA, your telling me that I should support the organization's attempt to impose punishment on my home DZ by continuing to pay my dues? Basically what the USPA is currently doing is picking one side of an argument between two different segments of its membership without any sort of means of arbitration.

[nate_1979 9]

They are siding against the side which is doing nothing but cause damage to the sport... I have spent way to much time reading about skyride, I see them as nothing but a parasite which needs to be removed from our sport. I am happy the USPA is taking a stand with it. I also agree with what was said above, where do you draw the line? The GM's pay dues, so the USPA is going to have to continue to help the DZs as well as the jumpers, .. Bottom line is that helping the DZs helps *US* at the same time, keeps the places we want to jump in business.. What's the problem with this?

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[ninjaswooper 0]

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They are siding against the side which is doing nothing but cause damage to the sport... I have spent way to much time reading about skyride, I see them as nothing but a parasite which needs to be removed from our sport.

Well Nate, you've amassed an amazing 52 jumps in one year in the sport, and have spent a self-professed "way to [sic] much time reading about skyride..." I'm guessing from your tone that most, if not all of that which you have read has been negative. This is understandable when you consider that pissed off people are much more likely to waste their time ranting on forums like this than happy people are.

But let me ask you something, during this year of way too much reading and jumping your ass off, did you ever take the time to see for yourself what any skyride related DZs are about? Or did you just take the words of so many who post on these forums as absolute truth. These people on the internet couldn't possibly be wrong could they? Please, before you pass judgement, come make a jump or two with some of us, if you still think we're assholes after that, by all means, take your business elsewhere. That, after all if what it all comes down to, the most powerful vote in a capitalist economy, a dollar.

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I am happy the USPA is taking a stand with it. I also agree with what was said above, where do you draw the line? The GM's pay dues, so the USPA is going to have to continue to help the DZs as well as the jumpers, .. Bottom line is that helping the DZs helps *US* at the same time, keeps the places we want to jump in business.. What's the problem with this?

OK, let me clarify, all the parties involved in the dispute are members, USPA taking sides is equivalent to me calling up USPA and saying, skydiver XYZ is a asshole, kick him out. And, simply by the fact that I made a really big stink about about, they comply. That's the problem.

DZs are businesses, businesses which happen to compete regardless of the fact they belong to the same organization. Now businesses who despise competition (when they may be suffering) are asking the USPA to take away the competition.

[nate_1979 9]

lol... wow... ok... Yes, infact I have jumped at skyride related DZs, one of which stopped accepting the certificates.. IMO I really dont need to be a 10 year jumper to realize when something stinks, .. I really dont care if you think that because I am pretty new to the sport that I dont get an opinion, but IMO I pay the same dues you do, and I've lived in this world long enough to know some things... It's not only about skydiving, it's about a scam (which you call business), .. Making fake DZ websites is a scam and it's just not good for the sport. (not to mention all the other crap they do).

Edited to add: I'll jump with you any day.. I'm sure your not an asshole, and nowhere did I ever say you were..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[LouDiamond 1]

What I think you and others opposed to this are failing to acknowledge is that USPA's involvement in this is a secondary respone to what several DZ's and individuals have already decided they will no longer tolerate and that is the criminal aspects of Skyrides operation. These aspects range from fraud in several forms and theft of individuals materials/property.

The USPA's involvment is a response to it's members ,both GM and individual asking them to stop a current negative practice that is detrimental to the sport as a whole. It is in the same vein as the USPA working with the TSA so you can carry your rig on a flight unhassled. It has nothing to do with the DZ or the people who frequent those DZ's nor competition. It's about laws being blatently broken and the people who are tired of being taken advantage of so some one else can profit on their hard work.

The USPA is our governing body and just like any form of government, there are going to be people unhappy with the way the administration runs things from time to time. Those who have had enough of skyride's practices presented enough convincing evidence to warrent that the USPA do something for the good of the many and the sport. This would not go away even if the USPA was not involved as those who have had "enough" would still see this through to the end. People are going after skyride because they are breaking laws. The USPA is involved because this involves skydiving. Don't confuse the issue with personalities, DZ's or individuals.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ninjaswooper 0]

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Those who have had enough of skyride's practices presented enough convincing evidence to warrent that the USPA do something for the good of the many and the sport. This would not go away even if the USPA was not involved as those who have had "enough" would still see this through to the end. People are going after skyride because they are breaking laws. The USPA is involved because this involves skydiving. Don't confuse the issue with personalities, DZ's or individuals.

The question is where the burden of proof lays, and at what level that burden is (beyond a reasonable doubt, simply convincing?) in terms of USPA. Though the USPA is a governing body, it seems at the very least unbecoming of such a governing body to act as prosecutor, judge and jury all rolled into one. All the plantiffs have to do is convince a majority and, ahem, "off with his head".

If skyride is breaking laws, that is really the job of state, or federal attorney's general to prosecute, judges to officiate, and juries to decide. USPA doesn't decide who is or is not breaking the law, neither do you or I unless we sit on a duly appointed jury. Fortunately were it ever to come to such, the odds of a skydiver familiar with skyride sitting on that jury would be slim to none.

[PhreeZone 20]

USPA is not acting as the full judge, jury and procecutor in this case. They are simply what actions the members ask for and their legal team decides to do. If that is launching a lawsuit on behalf of the membership, thats one option. They may take the fraud case directly to the Georgia courts. They may just chose to refuse to renew some DZ's GM applications when they are up for renewal. The GM one can be damaging depending on the local airport board.

Then again the USPA legal team may decide its not worth the members money to fight this fight and pass on the case. Like I said in the other post... at least $25,000 has be pledged on behalf of DZ's towards their own lawsuit, or probally could be used in assistance with the USPA to minimize the draw on members dues.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ninjaswooper 0]

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USPA is not acting as the full judge, jury and procecutor in this case. They are simply what actions the members ask for and their legal team decides to do. If that is launching a lawsuit on behalf of the membership, thats one option. They may take the fraud case directly to the Georgia courts. They may just chose to refuse to renew some DZ's GM applications when they are up for renewal. The GM one can be damaging depending on the local airport board.

Then again the USPA legal team may decide its not worth the members money to fight this fight and pass on the case. Like I said in the other post... at least $25,000 has be pledged on behalf of DZ's towards their own lawsuit, or probally could be used in assistance with the USPA to minimize the draw on members dues.

If as a governing body, they build a case against, then decide on the merit of the case, and any forthcoming punishment, then yes, they play those roles... I guess you could really just get rid of the jury because a judge can decide the meirt of the case, and you could argue that the prosecutors are the complaining memebers but at least in our own system of government prosecutors are ideally disinterested parties with no conflicts of interest, which you could hardly say is true in the case of complaining Group Member DZs.

Once again, if laws are being broken, complainants should take the cases to the respective attorneys general. The USPA has no place here, when helping one skydiver could hurt another skydiver. Though, I don't really care, I'd prefer the organization whither into nothingness, I'd rather not pay 60 bucks a year for a rather lackluster rag.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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USPA is not acting as the full judge, jury and procecutor in this case. They are simply what actions the members ask for and their legal team decides to do. If that is launching a lawsuit on behalf of the membership, thats one option. They may take the fraud case directly to the Georgia courts. They may just chose to refuse to renew some DZ's GM applications when they are up for renewal. The GM one can be damaging depending on the local airport board.

Then again the USPA legal team may decide its not worth the members money to fight this fight and pass on the case. Like I said in the other post... at least $25,000 has be pledged on behalf of DZ's towards their own lawsuit, or probally could be used in assistance with the USPA to minimize the draw on members dues.

Sorry for a slight repost, but my original post did not go thru.

USPA is NOT in any way, shape or form taking any type of lawsuit against SkyRide.
USPA AT MOST will revoke memberships. To expect anything beyond that is a dream - really?????

I just want to clarify something about the USPA actions towards SkyRide or any other similar type organization or individual.

1. SkyRide is NOT a USPA Group member.
2. The owners of SkyRide, Cary Quattrochi and Ben Butler, are individual members of USPA. They have BOTH appeared before the BOD, defending SkyRide operations in the past 24 months.
3. Altanta Skydiving Center (ASC), Alabama Skydiving Center (ASC) and Skydive Pennridge are Group members of USPA.

USPA disciplinary actions include revoking or suspending memberships and/or ratings.

USPA cannot take any action against SkyRide as SkyRide is NOT a USPA member.

USPA can take action against individual members.

To make a VERY LONG STORY, SHORT, USPA at most can revoke the individual memberships of Cary Q and Ben B and the Group memberships of the DZs that they own (Altanta Skydiving Center (ASC), Alabama Skydiving Center (ASC) and Skydive Pennridge).

Let's ASSUME that the memberships have been revoked.

Does this mean that SkyRide conducts itself respectably??

USPA can only revoke membership. USPA cannot change the behavior of third parties.

If you are looking to USPA to change the behavior of SkyRide, I suggest you look elsewhere.

[Disclaimer: Glenn - This is my personal opinion - no need to quote it in a BOD meeting. Deal with it.]

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[justinb138 0]

If I remember correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), weren't you the one that claimed responsibility for hijacking ("hacking" is the term I believed you used) the ASC forum and sending out spam late the other night in the Skyride thread ? (It appears to have been deleted, but I'm not sure.)

Discussing legal matters after publicly announcing that you illegally gained access to a commercial computer system is something I find humerous.

You amuse me.

Edit: Cause I can't spell

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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The question is where the burden of proof lays

It's simple. We have a slew of photographers that have not sold their pictures to any party related to Skyride, yet that organization uses their pictures. That is only one of a few things that are EASILY proven. Yes, I have done the research, have jumped at a Skyride DZ (or three), and know the jumpers there. I also am friends with jumpers that have left a certain Skyride DZ.

For the thousandth time. This isn't about the DZs or the jumpers. It IS about the standard operating procedures that would be unethical and illegal no matter what biz you are in. There is no excuse, no reason and no way that it can be continued without causing further damage to the industry. Once again - in case you missed it - this isn't about you or those you jump with.

Skyride is an issue that is damaging for jumpers. Therefore the USPA must get involved. And as you mentioned, other legal routes are being taken as well.

Mind you this could have all been avoided if Ben and Cary cared an ounce about respecting other people's property. The only two options left are 1) ALL DZs stop using them (but that won't stop the theft of images) and 2) a legal judgement.

I've asked for anyone that defends Skyride to give a list of reasons on why these illegal actions are ok. Can you do that? No one has done that yet. While you are at it - let us know if you think it is ok for other jumpers to steal gear.

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Though, I don't really care, I'd prefer the organization whither into nothingness, I'd rather not pay 60 bucks a year for a rather lackluster rag.

In case you missed it - the USPA is the reason we are jumping now after 9/11. They are the reason why you can bring your rig on an airplane after 9/11. Then there are the extra security procedures they wanted in place post 9/11 at non-towered airports. There are a few more items to that list - if you care to know, you should send an email to the USPA asking them. They will send it to you.

I don't think most people no anything about the USPA but they hear a person or two on the DZ bitch about them and they jump on the bandwagon. Have you gone to a meeting? I have. This is an organization run by jumpers! They do a good job of helping us, even if they make a mistake or two along the way.

No one yet has been able to give a list of "ALL" the things the USPA does to side against the jumper. I would like to see this list and the reasons why people feel it is bad for us. The fact that no one has produced it tends to show to me that most people just want to bitch about the USPA and that's about it.

We need the USPA. I used to think otherwise until I did my research and contacted a few RD's and ND's and read the minutes. If you don't like it, then don't pay your membership dues or run for office and make the changes from the inside.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 10]

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On what topics? When, why, how, and does it show it in the minutes?

For one the inspection program.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I don't know enough about the Skyride issue to have an opinion on whether they should be involved or not, but the 9/11 shutdown was the first thing that came to mind when you said that USPA shouldn't be helping DZ's. I was certainly glad they were involved at that time because I was pretty much out of work during the shutdown (since I worked at the dz).

The AOPA got GA aircraft flying again, not the USPA. The first thingt he USPA did was call the AOPA.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Well Nate, you've amassed an amazing 52 jumps in one year in the sport, and have spent a self-professed "way to [sic] much time reading about skyride..."

OK if you want to play that game...

How about me and my 11 years and 3400 jumps to your 250ish?

I think Skyride is a parasite and they should not be allowed to continue the BS practices they do.

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But let me ask you something, during this year of way too much reading and jumping your ass off, did you ever take the time to see for yourself what any skyride related DZs are about?

You mean like claiming to have a DZ in every major city, and using other peoples buildings, aircraft and staff as their own?

Ya mean those kinds of activities?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[WrongWay 0]

I'm not going to get into a big long elaborate discussion on it but I'll just throw in my .02

Yes, I think what Skyride is doing is shit.

Yes, I am against the opinion that it's USPA's place to do anything about it. It's the DZ's responsibility to deal with/not deal with Skyride.

There ya go.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[diablopilot 2]

Thank you for ther clarification Jan. Original reports were word of mouth and I had not till now recieved any furthur information.

I agree SkyRide has some shady practices, but as stated before I do not see it as a USPA function to regulate them.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Skyride is an issue that is damaging for jumpers. Therefore the USPA must get involved. And as you mentioned, other legal routes are being taken as well.

Would you PLEASE stop trying to be the spokesperson for every jumper?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Skyride is an issue that is damaging for jumpers. Therefore the USPA must get involved. And as you mentioned, other legal routes are being taken as well.

Would you PLEASE stop trying to be the spokesperson for every jumper?

Funny, I was thinking that you were doing the same thing by calling for removal of BOD members because they talked about Skyride.

How is it bad for the individual that the USPA is looking into an issue that many members have complained about? Seems to me that they are doing their job.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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On what topics? When, why, how, and does it show it in the minutes?

For one the inspection program.

That's it? Anything else?

Remind me again how that hurt you as an indivdual member.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Salsa_John 0]

I personally attend many board meetings as an interested "UNINVOLVED" party which are being held under the "executive session" rule. I have had to sign a non-disclosure contract to which I am legally bound.

Perhaps this may be an option.

As far as the USPA getting involved, if Skyride is defrauding people, then they are hurting the legitimacy of our sport as a whole. If their supposed actions continue, much legitimate business could be lost due to the bad publicity and some DZ's could suffer due to the decrease in revenue.

It only takes one bad apple to sour the mash.

Do you want the opinion of the general public to be one of disdane for our sport.

I personally support the USPA's investigation of this matter and any steps they deem necessary to protect the image of Safety, Quality, Legitimacy, and Brotherhood which our sport has come to represent.

my 2c

"You did what?!?!"

MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez

[Ron 10]

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That's it? Anything else?

No one thing can serve two masters.

I'm sorry that you don't understand how the USPA is more about the business of skydiving than protecting the jumpers...

You want another example....How about the failure of the USP to make DZ's use the ISP? If it is so good and better for the studetns why did the USPA go from manditory to recomended?

I could go on all day with examples of how the USPA ignores the jumper in favor of the DZO.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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That's it? Anything else?

No one thing can serve two masters.

I'm sorry that you don't understand how the USPA is more about the business of skydiving than protecting the jumpers...

You want another example....How about the failure of the USP to make DZ's use the ISP? If it is so good and better for the studetns why did the USPA go from manditory to recomended?

I could go on all day with examples of how the USPA ignores the jumper in favor of the DZO.

Because you disagree with the route they go you feel they are ignoring all of the members?

Please, explain to me how this recommendation is bad for the members? How is the inspection program bad for the members? I hear complaints with no one giving the reasons on WHY they are bad choices. This is what I am curious on...details.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....