Hooknswoop 19 #101 February 1, 2005 QuoteA friend of mine once told me "jumpers are like whores, give them the right planes and right facilities, and they'll come to your DZ" Seems appropriate when I can certainly say that I've personally seen the faces of some of ASCs detractors jumping from our very own twin-otter in lovely Cedartown, GA. Are they "ASC detractors" or against Skyrides illegal and unethical business practices? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakbrother 0 #102 February 1, 2005 QuoteQuote Great. Now, are YOUR interests served if the DZs you enjoy can't afford the facilities you like because they are DEFRAUDED out of income by the likes of Skyride, which advertizes BOGUS DZs right where SDC and Hinckley are located? Umm, some DZ will obviously get the income from the tandems sold by skyride and then would logically be able to afford the facilities we all like (turbines, a/c packing, lots o loads, organizing, etc.) So, an analogy of sorts... You like to shop at store A, it's a sweet little store in your mind. But it just so happens that shop B does a much better job of marketing, whatever, and eventually shop A's business suffers so that it can no longer provide you with the services you require (say you only buy chocolate, but the real money's in selling soda pop and it just so happens that's what your shop really sucks at) Now, being the chocolate lover you are are you going to stop buying all together, or get a fix from shop B? . Stealing and false advertizing do not constitute "a better job of marketing". . www.freak-brother.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #103 February 1, 2005 You have yet to reply to my question: Is it ok for Skyride to steal and continue its illegal practices? Yes or no? If no, why do you defend them. If yes then please give a reason why. Would you be ok with someone stealing your rig if it "helped" another jumper get better gear? Do you feel the theft of the pictures is ok? Do you feel deceptive bait and switch practices are ok? Do you feel telling lies about fatalities at other DZs is a good practice? Yes or no to all of these please. Real answers, not some smart ass play on words. I doubt that anyone connected to Skyride or it's supporters will ever answer these questions. Instead they will continue to dance on the fringe and play the "it's better for us, so it must be ok....and everyone will have to deal with it because we won't change no matter how illegal it is" card. If I were you I would be upset that the owners of Skyride are putting your DZ in the middle of a legal bullseye due to their unethical behavior. Like it or not there will be legal action and anything connected to the Skyride owners will be pursued for repayment of loss if a guilty verdict comes down. Therefore Skyride will negatively effect your DZ. This is a real warning - there are some significant things happening that will not bode well for Skyride. Maybe you should re-think your position on how helpful this will be for you and the dropzone you jump at._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #104 February 2, 2005 funny, I do not remember DZO's opposing the ISP. I remember a lot of flack from INSTRUCTORS about having to change. Personally, I never gave any input, nor was asked for any input to the program. I would like to change, but it does not happen overnight. It is a complicated process of switching and retraining staff to teach things that they have never taught before, restructuring all the pricing and then trying to teach everyone on your staff how to sell it, how it works and then following up to hope that it all works. And trying to do that with all the other day-to-day business operations that I have to do. What exactly is my motivation? People resist change in general, not just DZO's. This DZO also helped lead the way with Skydive Chicago to go to BOC for students. Also encourages students and instructors to improve canopy control techniques and the way we teach it. Makes regular changes to our trainign programs to stay in step with better teaching practices and techniques. For the most part when we see something good, we move towards it. Perhaps not at lightning speed, but I have a page listing all the changes we have made to our programs over the years I have been here. The staff for the most part is not that interested in changing their day to day routine. There is a lot more to it than just staing that "USPA lost to the DZO's" - and I do not believe that. A lot of people at a lot of levels had a lot of input and a lot of questions about the new ISP program, as they should. To expect everyone to drop what they are doing and jump to some new, un-proven program is simply not realistic. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #105 February 2, 2005 after reading much of the thread - a lot of what USPA does for DZ's also directly benefits the jumper. They helped keep a 10% tax of jumps in 1996 or 1997. They help with STC's, airport access, keep the regulators off their backs. Most recently, helped keep the requirement for terrain warning systems out of airplanes. A direct benefit for the DZO, but also a driect benefit for the jumper, as it keeps costs down. They HAVE kept their nose out of a lot of business issues. For example, they stopepd fighting for the right to hot-fuel, since it is illegal in most places, but people do it anyway. But it was decided that this was a problem for a few larger DZ's and they should do somethign about it themselves. I think USPA is a great organization, does a ton of work with few resources. Want to see some piss poor skydiving organizations. Just look at severla other countries to compare what we have to what they have. We shine. If you do not like it, you can leave. Most DZO's do not 'force you' to be a USPA member, we only do it because they offer insurance for you. Secure your own insurance and I bet that you can jump wherever you like - but I bet you cannot find insurance for under $60/year. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #106 February 2, 2005 Quotefunny, I do not remember DZO's opposing the ISP. I remember a lot of flack from INSTRUCTORS about having to change. I did and still do hear DZO's opposing the ISP. The Instructor's will do what the DZO wants, pure and simple, or as it was explained to me, "You know your options." QuoteJust look at severla other countries to compare what we have to what they have. OK, compare USPA to the APF. QuoteIf you do not like it, you can leave. Too late Already did. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #107 February 2, 2005 QuoteThis DZO also helped lead the way with Skydive Chicago to go to BOC for students Yes, but don't you think it should be the USPA's job to look for better ways to train students? Both SDCity and SDChicago have progressive programs. If I remember correctly, SDChicago had some issues with the USPA over its program. QuoteA lot of people at a lot of levels had a lot of input and a lot of questions about the new ISP program, as they should. To expect everyone to drop what they are doing and jump to some new, un-proven program is simply not realistic. This was not some off the wall training program. The ISP was nothing more than documenting the steps most programs already did. It was not "un-proven". It also would have made some DZ's do more, not less. How would more training be bad? The USPA wanted the ISP manditory...The DZ's did not. The USPA backed down. Jumpers lost, DZ's won."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #108 February 2, 2005 TK, I think you didn't read my post completely. I am a huge suporter and promoter of the USPA. I simly diagree with their involvement in a) the SKyRide issue, and b) have now come to realize the GM program is at a cross purpose to what the USPA is there for.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #109 February 3, 2005 It has been brought to my attention that: 1) The DZ that was inspected by the VIP program didn't 'fail', it was set up intentionally to identify things that could be improved and as education for the DZO. 2) The VIP program is still available if a DZ wishes to use it (none have). Thanks. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
