night jumps

[zhark 0]

Hi

I'm going to be doing my first night jump (yes, i know...beer ) in about a week, and was wondering if you guys could answer a question for me and maybe give me some pointers...

The jumps are happening at a DZ I haven't jumped at before and is 2000ft higher than I normally jump. I usually jump a Pilot 150 loaded at 1.4, but for the purposes of the night jumps I'm taking along a Sabre 170 just in case I decide that I need more 'decision time' up there.

Now, I would *like* to do a jump during the day at this DZ first before doing the night jump, because it's a good idea. BUT, if this is not possible, do you think the risks outweigh the rewards on this one? Should I try and do a jump there during the day at all costs first, and if I don't sit out the night jumps?

I'm not too worried about the landing area - it is HUGE in comparison to our little postage stamp. I'd guess about the size of Titusville's DZ for a reference, except it's not in the middle of the city. My canopy control is pretty decent (I can do Billvon's downsizing checklist on my 150). But, I must admit I do not know what to expect in a night jump, so any pointers will be appreciated....

I will be getting a thorough briefing, just interested to hear what y'all have to say....

Thanks and blue ones
Jacques

[AggieDave 6]

I HIGHLY recommend that you do a jump at that DZ, atleast one, during the day to get used to jumping there and local conditions and such. Call the DZ and talk to the S&TA find out what he/she thinks...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dragon2 2]

Well I wouldn't, not at a DZ that I'd never jumped on before and definately not with an unfamilar canopy, and I've got more jumps than you and have done 2 nightjumps already...

I've got a healthy respect for nightjumps!

Edited to add that our DZ wouldn't even let you if you'd never jumped there before (you don't have to jump the same day though).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[zhark 0]

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Edited to add that our DZ wouldn't even let you if you'd never jumped there before (you don't have to jump the same day though).

I suspect that this will be the case here too. I didn't consider this when planning the trip (it's an 8 hour drive), but I guess I'll be going up earlier now

Would you say that I should rather stick to my usual canopy, rather than go bigger? I would put a few jumps on it this weekend just to familiarize myself with it before going up anyway....thoughts?

Thanks for the advice guys! Anything else that I might need to think about?

[skydiverjerry 0]

i recomend you do your risk assesment again, speak to the s&ta on the drop zone before you go and at your home dropzone.

dont rush in to these new things.
all good things come to he who waits.

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

[chuckbrown 0]

I would definitely do a day jump first, if for no other reason that to scope the area surrounding the DZ in case you end up landing off.

[pilotdave 0]

If you're not gonna be 100% familiar with the area before your night jump, consider what kind of plane they'll be using, how many passes they'll make, and how they'll light the landing area.

My DZ uses a 182 and makes 1 pass per group for night jumps. Everyone gets a near perfect spot. My first night jump at another dropzone used a king air with about 5 or 6 groups and 2 passes. But they had a much much bigger and better lit landing area and tons of outs. We have a pretty small landing area and very tight, VERY dark outs.

Personally when I had the option of a bigger/slower canopy vs one I had been jumping all day (a demo), I chose to use the demo for a night jump. It was much faster (spectre 135, vs my PD 150), but I had been practicing the flare timing with it all day and didn't want to go back to my canopy which had a totally different flare. But that's just me.

Dave

[dragon2 2]

I don't know... There's something to be said for jumping your own canopy, if you know that canopy pretty well... But a bigger canopy (esp in your case I'd think) is also a good idea... Dunno, ask your own instructor! However if you do decide to jump the bigger one at least make a few jumps on it before, you don't want to change too many things at once and believe me, a nightjump is already quite a handful.

My first one I had decided to jump a student manta, so even a no-flare wouldn't hurt me. I'm still a little bit nightblind but after my Lasik things have much improved, but back then I wasn't really sure. But the winds were too high for a .5 WL. Yeah.... They were so high that even with a looong spot I landed out 10 km and was blown backwards over my chosen landing field at 1000 ft! Luckily I had left myself an out behind me but this way I had to walk the long way round... I had no clue where I was, even though this was at my home DZ. I phoned the DZ to tell them I was safe but had no clue where to send the van... I started walking, past a castle. CASTLE?!?! I've never seen no $%^ castle! Well it turn out you CAN sometimes see it from the plane, but man..... Out of 10 jumpers only 3 landed on the AIRFIELD, never mind the lit area

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[blitzkrieg 0]

i would stick with your current canopy, the one you're already used to.
do a day jump prior like they said you have to anyway...
on your first, get out low with a "regular" jumper from the DZ checking the spot for you.

just my thoughts... night jumps make people nervous, but IMO, it's just another jump. you just have to be more careful of course. you'll hopefully get all you need to know by the s+ta 's brief before you jump.

[zhark 0]

Thanks. I guess I'd better go do my homework now... I suddenly have a lot of questions for my instructors that I didn't have before....but at least I've decided that a day jump is going to happen first.

[Fab 0]

"... I started walking, past a castle. CASTLE?!?! I've never seen no $%^ castle! Well it turn out you CAN sometimes see it from the plane, but man..... "

hehehe...Where is that $%^ castle? ...Can't remember ever seeing that either

_______________________________________

[dragon2 2]

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"... I started walking, past a castle. CASTLE?!?! I've never seen no $%^ castle! Well it turn out you CAN sometimes see it from the plane, but man..... "

hehehe...Where is that $%^ castle? ...Can't remember ever seeing that either

About 10 km east-north-east, a bit south of the village Terwolde (OK so I found out where THAT was on that jump too )

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Reginald 0]

1 First night jump.
2 New DZ
3 Higher altitude than home DZ
4 Fairly highly Loaded Canopy relative to experience (consider interaction with #3)

Hmm, looks like links in a chain.

How many jumps do you have at a DZ that is that much higher in elevation? How does your canopy perform at higher elevations?

It's your choice but I would highly suggest doing several jumps that day at the DZ you are taking about at minimum if you do this at all.

I had the option of doing my first night jump at Elisnore, where I had about 10 jumps, which has a huge landing area, but is about 1,000 feet higher than my home DZ. I decided not to even though I was being encouraged to join in the fun. I decided my home DZ that I knew intimately would be a safer choice. So I waited a number of months. I’m glad I did. That first night jump was almost like doing AFF 1 again in terms of nerves and being in an unusual environment. It was comforting to know the landing area and proper patterns, and the other people in the air with me.

Be safe.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[Amazon 7]

I LOVE night jumps..

BUT a night jump is NOT just another jump.

You need to get to the other DZ and jump it during the day.. UNDER the canopy you will be using for the night jumps..

Jumping at a higher DZ with an unfamiliar canopy at a DZ you do not know. is NOT a good idea... Get some experience there with that conopy you want to jump.. and get used to landing it in the daylight.

[BIGUN 1,312]

Phreezone just compiled a bunch of information to develop an article regarding night jumps. You may wish to pm him for some pointers.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[NightJumper 0]

In addition to the suggestions above, another reason responsible drop zones require a day jump is so that you can see what any out landing areas that you may need to use look like. Would you want to land out at night and not have any idea of where you are landing or what you may land on?I also recommend that you take a cell phone with you.

[zhark 0]

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How many jumps do you have at a DZ that is that much higher in elevation? How does your canopy perform at higher elevations?

I've also done a few jumps at other DZ's 4000ft ASL. I'm not too worried about 2000ft, but in an alien enviroment (meaning night time) if my height/depth perception is off, it may make a difference. I don't know if I should expect it to be?

I'm going to see if I can get a few jumps in before the night jumps at the DZ. I'll chat to both ST&A's this weekend and take it from there. My first night jump will be a 10sec delay from 6000ft where I do nothing but enjoy the view (and make sure I can see the runway lights). I can't imagine that the spot could be bad enough on such a huge DZ to land out from 6000ft. Esp. since max winds are 10kts for night jumps here.

If need be, I'll even jump a student canopy, just in case i find out I'm night blind or something . Think that's overboard?

Thanks for the tips eveyone

[NightJumper 0]

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I can't imagine that the spot could be bad enough on such a huge DZ to land out from 6000ft.

Yeap, probably has NEVER happened.NOT! And no one has EVER had to make an emergency exit.Oh, and don't forget that malfunctions ONLY happen under optimal condition and when you expect them to!

Just remember that it is what you “can’t imagine” that will bite you ass!

[skymama 37]

Have you asked at the dz if they will even let you do a night jump if you don't jump there during the day? At our dz it was a requirement when we did our night jumps and most of us were all locals.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Tonto 1]

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1 First night jump.
2 New DZ
3 Higher altitude than home DZ
4 Fairly highly Loaded Canopy relative to experience (consider interaction with #3)

Hmm, looks like links in a chain.

Spot on. Reading this thread every fibre of my exsistance is screaming

Events Cascade!!

In reply to the origional poster....

It's never one thing that causes an accident. There are usually a minimum of 3 links in the chain.

1. 1st night jump
2. Unfamiliar DZ (Don't think 1 jump during the day will change this.)
3. Higher surface elevation
4. Possible borrowed gear.

Bye! (or see you in incidents...)

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[jimmytavino 16]

add this list of things to have with you for a night jump.....
Glow sticks..
red strobe light... ( airplanes can be flying around in the dark so it is good to have a flasher )
small flashlight,, with FRESH batteries, for checking your canopy
Illuminated altimeter,, ( Glow in the dark Alti lll )( borrow one if you have to )
A whistle on a lanyard,, around your neck,,, in case you need to "call" someone,, after a possible landing injury,,,,
All # 1 night jumps should be solo,,,,, so "other canopy traffic" should not be a problem,, unless there are mulitple solos exiting one after another...the L O should assign exit positions based on opening altitudes canopy sizes and wing loading.

Be advised that your depth perception can and likely WILL BE less sharp,, than on a day jump...
many Many experienced canopy pilots have been caught off guard when the ground suddenly lurches UP at them... Hope for a well lit landing area,,, and then be sure that you GET THERE.. under canopy..
For sure any OFF landing into a non lit or a semi lit area will be Challenging!!!!
cell phone can't hurt either... this way you can call a friend shortly after you land safely.... and yell Yahoo....The DZO will take care of all the particulars, involving pilot, aircraft, communication, and lighting of the landing area... You must take care of insuring that the skydive is a safe one...
The view at exit altitude should be Super...
Be sure that you SEE the intended landing area,,,, before you exit.... Be sure you check the CURRENT winds aloft,, before you board..... Trust me... things can change,, DRAMATICALLY (regarding wind speed AND direction),,, between what was happening during the day,,,, and what happens after sunset....
Hope that the windsock has been lit... and then REFER to it........... Prepare to forego that "perfect Stand-Up landing",,,,in favor or a buttslide,, or PLF,, if needed......Relish the freefall and the canopy descent.... Make a picture perfect landing,, IF it presents itself,,, but as for the landing,,,, be prepared for anything.... Have fun....
Jimmy... participant,, current world record holder,
All POPS night 12 way frontier skydivers NY ...

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[zhark 0]

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I can't imagine that the spot could be bad enough on such a huge DZ to land out from 6000ft.

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Yeap, probably has NEVER happened.NOT! And no one has EVER had to make an emergency exit.Oh, and don't forget that malfunctions ONLY happen under optimal condition and when you expect them to!

Good point. Didn't consider the emergency exit or malfunction there for a sec....

[zhark 0]

Quote

It's never one thing that causes an accident. There are usually a minimum of 3 links in the chain.

1. 1st night jump
2. Unfamiliar DZ (Don't think 1 jump during the day will change this.)
3. Higher surface elevation
4. Possible borrowed gear.

Bye! (or see you in incidents...)

If at all possible, I'm trying to avoid the indidents forum . However, I don't see how it's possible to avoid (1) or (3), since night jumps will probably NEVER happen at either of my usual DZ's.

As for (2), obviously the more the better, but would you say there is a "minimum"? Or would it depend on stuff like how my accuracy and landings are going there. How much I've studied the lay of the land from above and such? Or is it more complex than that?

As for (4), easy to avoid. I can just use my own gear. I'm happy with it, the only reason I considered upsizing is because I'm not sure about the depth perception thing (which appears to be a problem). Good thing I'm only getting my new rig the week after, just in case I smear this one... Would student gear be more hassle than benefit?

Obviously I want to jump, but I'm not going to be silly about it. I'm more than happy to sit this one out, if necessary. I'm not in a hurry to get my C license. I'd just like to get as much information as possible, so that I can make an informed decision...

Thanks for all the advice so far. It's been great!

[markd_nscr986 0]

And dont drop your cyalumes after you open

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[nicknitro71 0]

Night jumps are a blast and I love them but get a bigger canopy especially if you are jumping in unfamiliar terrain.

You dept perception is going to very, very different.

Shortly after I got back into jumping after a bad accident resulting in several broken bones we made night jumps.
Instead of my x-fx 111 or viper 105 I jumped a falcon 265! I am glad I did.
This was not my first night jump but I did flare low. With the Falcon I was jumping that resulted in a very, very decent swoop!
If I was jumping my regular canopies a flare that low would have resulted in an accident, no doubt.

I blame that to my vision (20/60), it has gotten worse in the past few years and I'm too dumb, too stubborn to wear glasses, contact lens bother me. I am scheduled for eye surgery now...

Few advices, stay in the dark at least 30 min before jumping.

On final move your eyes 45 degrees to either side. That puts your focus more on the rods than the cones and improves your night vision.

If in doubt use a student radio and please jump some student gear too!

Memento Audere Semper

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