Little debate going on here... Cutaway and go to reserve on a PC in tow or just go to reserve???

[JohnMitchell 16]

davelepka

If you introduce the idea that 'some' mals don't require a cutaway, now the 'decide' part becomes a two-step process. First you're asking a student to make a 'judgment call' as to the condition of their canopy, and next you're asking them to make a much subtler distinction between some mals that require a cutaway and some that don't.

Interesting point. I learned on capewells and a front mount, a fair amount of stuff to learn. Seemed that practice was the key.

And we used to teach not to cutaway for a true total. "I can't find/pull the hackey! Pull my reserve!" seemed simple enough to me, a fairly easy decision tree. However, you can only teach a scared dog so many tricks, right?

So in the interest of KISS, I guess I'll quit my bitchin'. I hope everyone gets the memo to revise their EP's as they get more experience. Some people are real students of the sport, some just coast along.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

NoShitThereIWas

So you would cutaway first???

<-------You read that profile, right? Yes, if I've thrown my pilot chute then I'm going to perform EP"s for a partial malfunction if I can't shake back and forth hard enough to get it free:

Look right, grab right!
Look left, grab left!
ARCH!
Peel/pull right, throw away!
Peel/pull left, throw away!
Check!

Pilot chute in-tow malfunctions/hesitations are not at all uncommon for wingsuiters. I'm very, very experienced in dealing with them.

Chuck

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I so appreciate you and Dave taking the time to respond to this thread. I was taught cutaway and pull reserve as a student. For years I taught cutaway and pull reserve as an AFF I. After a 5-6 year break and returning to the sport, I sat down and thought to myself as I noticed the demo canopy in my sport rig is a little snug on the main pin... Self, what Are you going to do in a PC in tow? So many scenarios went through my head and I started questioning which way was "right". I was never retrained to incorporate all of the scenarios and if I was I had since forgotten because I couldn't answer my own question with conviction. I like knowing my EPs with conviction for every mal before every jump.

Although I still feel like a student at times being back after many years, I do still have close to 1500 jumps of past experience and although I don't agree that skydiving is like riding a bike, it does take time to rehone your skills, I do like the fact that I got some valuable feedback to help me answer that question and have better understanding after bouncing the question. Thank you.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[JohnMitchell 16]

I remember when throw outs were brand new. A lot of thinking about what could and couldn't happen. Most of us just decided, I think, to go straight to the reserve for a pilot chute in tow. Usually it was caused by a twisted belly band.

Only towed one and we had broken to pull high for CRW. It finally opened but I wasn't real happy with it. This was before curved pins.

[lintern 1]

In the event of two canopies out in a side-by-side configuration (as shown in the OPs video) should you not cut away the main ?

The Break Away DVD (Pier Media) recommends that with a side-by-side configuration you should cut away the main.

Also, I was of the understanding that with with a total or PCIT malfunction, the advantage of performing a cut away before going for the reserve is that if the main starts to deploy whilst the reserve is deploying, the main will simply release.

So what is the disadvantage of a cut away in the event of a total or PCIT, besides the additional time it takes to cut away ?

[-ftp- 0]

Arvoitus

You mean something like this?

to me this is a pretty damn good reason NOT to cutaway with a PCIT. Had he cutaway....he would be dead most likely.

[gianquittia 0]

I had a PC in tow 2 months ago. I cutaway and pulled my reserve. In my video if you pause it you can see the pilot chute and bridal shooting up as my reserve is coming out. The pressure on the main closing pin from either cutting away or pulling the reserve caused the pilot chute to pull out my main as the reserve was opening. I guess I'm pretty lucky everything missed each other and I had an nice reserve ride. The cause of my PC in tow was a packing error on my part. I now pack the PC the Germain way. When I pulled my PC it wrapped around my hackey choking off some of the pc's drag, so it didn't have enough force to pull the pin out. It needed less force after cutting away/pulling reserve and released. I found the canopy in the bag the next day in 7 ft corn stalks. The first day we looked for 2 hours before night came. I actually believe there's a chance had I not cutaway I would have had two canopies out, if the main would have released. But who knows!

Be Happy!

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

My fiance packed his pilot chute the Brian Germain way. The bridle wrapped a perfect knot around the monkey fist which prevented the pilot chute from inflating enough to pull the main off his back.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[FataMorgana 0]

I have been closing my container using Brian’s method (btw also recommended by UPT) for more than 200 times now and have not seen any adverse effects. So, are you saying that using Brian’s method will lead to PC in tow more frequently than using any other method. Personally, I do not see any connection between routing the bridle out of the bottom of the container and PC in tow. Do you have any data (beside the described singular event) supporting your statement. Perhaps, I am not reading this right, so could you clarify exactly the point that you are making. .

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

Stephen Hawking

[Squeak 17]

NoShitThereIWas

My fiance packed his pilot chute the Brian Germain way. The bridle wrapped a perfect knot around the monkey fist which prevented the pilot chute from inflating enough to pull the main off his back.

IF this is the case then might I suggest that your fiancée may just have made an error in packing his PC.
Packing a PC in the method Brian suggests cannot lead to a bridle wrap.
However packing it with too much excess bridle may.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[pchapman 279]

@ FataMorgana: This is about the Germain pilot chute packing method, not the bridle routing around container flaps method.

Squeak

Packing a PC in the method Brian suggests cannot lead to a bridle wrap.

Really? I don't see how it is any more impossible Brian's way than any of the other common folding techniques, but am willing to hear explanations.

Brian's way does hold the bridle 'within' the pilot chute to some extent, which may help sequence the deployment a little, instead of just allowing the bridle to dump fully out into the wind as soon as the pilot chute roll starts coming apart as it is tossed.

Still, any time the pilot chute is not thrown really quickly away from the jumper, there is a chance that it will blow back into whatever bridle there is flapping in the breeze.

A wrap of the bridle and pilot chute might also be promoted by sloppier pilot chute packing, allowing some twisting of the bridle partially around the PC handle while handling and inserting it into the BOC. This could happen with most methods.

But I haven't analyzed any of this in the detail BASE jumpers might do about their deployment methods, so better informed opinions are possible.

I'd just be surprised if Germain's pilot chute packing technique is the cure for all ills.

Here's a PC toss seen on a hop and pop recently:
[inline a_PC_toss.jpg]
It is probably no worse than many many PC tosses. It looks like there's always a tiny chance that the PC will blow back into the bridle, with the chance that the bridle hitches around the PC. Whether the PC was packed the Germain way or not, I'm not sure that it matters much by this stage.

[Squeak 17]

Hi Pete
Ive been using the Brian method for about 1200 jumps, Im pretty fussy about how i pack it and I make sure the bridle is not twisted or lose within the BOC and i make sure that there is no excess bridle stuffed into the BOC (which I maintain regualrly).
I beleive with a good packing method done properly and a good throw of the PC there is (what I consider) pretty much zero chance of a bridle wrap.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[evan85 0]

Squeak

Packing a PC in the method Brian suggests cannot lead to a bridle wrap.

Brian Germain's PC packing method is not designed to reduce the incidence of a bridle wrap. Rather, it is designed to effect easier and more positive extraction of the PC in the event of a horseshoe malfunction so that the bridle can pull the PC out of the BOC.


From Brian's website (http://www.bigairsportz.com/art-pilotchute.php):

"Why should you change your pilot chute packing method?

Simple. Most methods, when presented with a bag-first deployment (a.k.a. horseshoe), will allow the load on the bridle to turn the pilot chute into a large ball inside the pocket, possibly prohibiting you from ever getting the pilot chute out of the pocket at all. This situation forces the skydiver to pull his reserve with the main still trailing from the pocket, even after he or she has cut away. Even if you have the strength to pull the pilot chute out of the pocket, you may not be able to reach the handle, as the bottom of the container (and the pouch) are now pressed up against the reserve pack tray. Remember, the main is already out of the rig. Unless you are one of those fortunate enough to be able to scratch your shoulder-blade, you may be in serious trouble.

This method significantly increases the chances of the bridle pulling the pilot chute out of the pocket."

[FataMorgana 0]

Quote

It looks like there's always a tiny chance that the PC will blow back into the bridle, with the chance that the bridle hitches around the PC. Whether the PC was packed the Germain way or not, I'm not sure that it matters much by this stage.

+1 and thank you for clarification.

I guess I needed more coffee writing my initial post[inline brianspc.jpg]
Bridle seemed to be out and away from the folded PC before PC got released, so rather typical picture for any PC packing method. Therefore, I would tend to agree that at this stage of deployment (PC out and bridle out) a particular packing method should be inconsequential.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

Stephen Hawking

[pchapman 279]

Thanks Squeak. Clearly there's more to be learned and discussed about pilot chutes but I think we can agree that Brian's method isn't supposed to eliminate all possibility of a bridle wrapping the PC, even if the method has some advantages. And whatever method you use, keeping the bridle neat and having a good throw promote proper PC openings...

(Pilot chutes and bridles are miniature parachute systems. To be really neat on deployment, you'd almost need a deployment staging system, metering out the bridle as it extends, rather than dumping it out, and having the PC stay tight until bridle stretch!)

[chuteless 1]

A few years back, a group of jumpers were debating wheethger to cutaway and use the reserve, or should they deploy the reserve with the malin tow. Within an hour of this debate, a bunch went up for a jump. One guy had a mal, and no one noticed. About an hour later, someone spoke up and said, "Where is Bobby"? They went out and found his body, the reserve wrapped around the malfunctioned main. If you have a mal, cutaway anduse the reserve. I wish Bobby had done that. He was a great guy, and such a waste. All in one day at the DZ. Bill Cole D-41

[-ftp- 0]

chuteless

A few years back, a group of jumpers were debating wheethger to cutaway and use the reserve, or should they deploy the reserve with the malin tow. Within an hour of this debate, a bunch went up for a jump. One guy had a mal, and no one noticed. About an hour later, someone spoke up and said, "Where is Bobby"? They went out and found his body, the reserve wrapped around the malfunctioned main. If you have a mal, cutaway anduse the reserve. I wish Bobby had done that. He was a great guy, and such a waste. All in one day at the DZ. Bill Cole D-41

of course if the main is out of the container the best option would be to cutaway....this is about pilot chute in tow mals.

[Andy9o8 2]

Very sadly, a fatality occurred in Norway yesterday that might - might (it's still early as I write this) - be relevant to the discussion in this thread. It's in the Incidents forum. I suggest we all watch that incident thread as it develops.