TM Poll: Side laterals

[Schaf 0]

Question: How do you handle side laterals after all the checks?

I usually disconnect them, loosen them and reconnect them. At about 900 feet I finally disconnect them. A discussion with our tandem examiner made me a strong believer: a canopy collision with another tandem or with a student (with sufficient altitude to chop and go for the reserve) would make connected side laterals very desirable...

[boxingrrl 0]

That's a very good point. Hmmm... Can't think of any down sides to it. Thanks for bringing that up.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I do a mix between simply unhooking then and getting them behind the passenger's legs (if they are taller than me); or unhooking, loosening, re-hooking (if they are my size or smaller). In the event of a canopy collision and the need to cutaway, I can going to wrap the passenger up with my legs and force them into an arch while chopping.

Chuck

[skyjunior 0]

After opening I do a equipment check and clear my airspace. Then I disconnect the side laterals and hook them to the passenger harness.

PLEASE REMEMB

[AggieDave 6]

I disconnect them, hook them back to the harness (Sigma harness/system) and that's that. If I'm in a canopy collision, and have to chop, two things are going to happen.

1. I'm going to leg lock my student, chop and go to the reserve.

2. I'm going to kick who's ever ass it was that hit us (if he/she is still alive after all of that).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NightJumper 0]

Quote

If I'm in a canopy collision, and have to chop, two things are going to happen.
1. I'm going to leg lock my student, chop and go to the reserve.

2. I'm going to kick who's ever ass it was that hit us (if he/she is still alive after all of that).

I like that, I think I will add that to the owners manual.

[slotperfect 7]

I answered "Other," but my method almost fits the first response. I disconnect the side attachment straps, then rehook them behind the student's back so they do not 1) get caught on anything (like a pulled down toggle ) and 2) get underneath me or the student on landing (ouch). I don't hook them back to their original location, or attempt to find the rings designed to hold them when they're not being used.

Arrive Safely

John

[iowa 0]

You're doing it by the book. Can't fault that. I don't usually hook them back up, but they don't know that. It unnerves some when you say you are unhooking anything.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[skydog 2]

I disconnect, loosen and reconnect for another reason, apart from the ones already stated.

On one of my early tandems (laterals disconnected) had an horrendous landing, which catapulted me over the shoulders of the passenger using my head as a pivot point. (told you it was bad)

A Tandem IE saw what happened and said that if I had my laterals connected I wouldn't have gone over so far. Which makes sense.

Since that day I have always reconnected the laterals. I havent had a landing as bad as that again, but was close once (Long legged student deciding to land legs down on a nil wind day!!). In that case I could feel the laterals stop me pitching up and over. Worked for me and reinforced the reason why I reconnect.

Bryn

Journey not destination.....

[cpoxon 0]

I voted "After all the checks I disconnect them, loosen them, reconnect them"

The reasons for this have already been stated. My question to those who keep them disconnected is why? What's to be gained from that? The only thing I can think of is a faster release of the student in a high wind and/or off-landing. But then, most would probably opt to disconnect RSL and cutaway on landing in this situation or owuld be aware of the likelihood of this and have the time to disconnect the laterals before landing.

In these situations I ask myself, "What would Bill say?" (and quickly refer to the manual, unless it's about pro-packing tandems of course ;-) ). On page 75 of the Tandem Vector Owners Manual, under Section 3 (Instructor Techniques), Chapter 4 (Canopy Control), Paragraph C (Stow and check handles and harness), Item 7, it says,

Quote

Tell the student you will make the harness more comfortable. Do not tell them that you accomplish this by releasing the lower attachment quick ejectors, pulling to loosen the webbing, and re-attaching

Which would imply that the manufacturer recommends that they be re-attached. Although, I must disgree with not telling them. Nearly all students find it disconcerting when they feel the ejectors release, even if you have them standing on your feet, so I feel it is better to prepare them for it, since knowledge dispels fear.

Edit to add: the manual also points out another reason to keep at least one of the laterals connected on page 41 if the drogue release handle is fitted to the student harness (we don't do this in the UK),

Quote

Attach right lower quick ejector, this allows freedom of move while connecting the drogue release handle. This also ensures the student can not pull away from you, preventing possible damage to the drogue release assembly.

Although this is more relevant whilst on the ground or prior to drogue release.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[Tonto 1]

Quote

I usually disconnect them, loosen them and reconnect them.

Ditto. One at a time, so there's always one hooked up. I release them completely only after landing.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[John4455 0]

The one of very few times that I didn't reconnect them, I also didn't remove the ripcord housing from the student harness. When we landed the grommet peice with the harness attachment clip (On the student ripcord housing) pulled off. Since then I started disconnecting the student ripcord housing, put the ripcord in it and attach it to my harness all under canopy. Saves a little bit of time.

How do ya like it Johnny?

[AggieDave 6]

And those don't really apply with the Sigma harness. The reason why you're supposed to do that with the Vector is that it doesn't have anywhere to put them sidelaterals after you disconnect them. Thus, it is easy to snag a toggle in the quick-ejector and then you're screwed.

Also, both drogue release handles are perminantly attatched to the instructor's harness, so you don't have the same problems as you would have with the Vector tandem system with the optional student drogue release.

The Sigma harness has black plastic rings built onto the harness to connect the side laterals to after you disconnect them from your harness.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

The reason why you're supposed to do that with the Vector is that it doesn't have anywhere to put them sidelaterals after you disconnect them.

So why not just reconnect them after they've been loosened?

I guess you could clip them onto the ring on the back of the harness (all the ones I've used have them). Might be a bit awkward but it's doable. Alternatively you could retighten the straps so that the ejectors are moved right up against the student harness. This stops the heavy snaps bouncing off the student if they aren't reattached anywhere, but I guess they are still a snag risk, but you'd have to try really hard to do that (I don't get the student to flare for landing and the snaps are quite low down between you and the student being in front of you will tend to bring the toggles forward of there anyway)

Quote

The Sigma harness has black plastic rings built onto the harness to connect the side laterals to after you disconnect them from your harness.

I think I used one of these this weekend for the pre-second time. Had a lowish chest strap and a belly band with double legstrap keeper webbing as well as a bungee and pop studs on the main attachment harness to keep them flapping about when not connected to the instructor? I wondered what they were for. But since I reconnect the laterals after loosening, it didn't really matter.

Still doesn't answer the question why you'd want to leave them disconnected?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[DutchSkyCam 0]

I mainly jump strong/master (jumped Vector in the past) and I disconnect the side laterals after I hand the toggles to the student (it gives them the illusion they have something to hold on to, just in case they feel like they are disconnected, or even notice that they are). If they notice (happened once or twice in 500 tandemjumps) I tell em i just loosend em.

I cannot see how a steering line can get hooked on the snaps. Even if I am spiralling down -with help from my student- the steering lines don't even come close to them. (I normally don't spiral down, I don't like being puked at)

Reconnecting them costs time in which you could talk to the student, point to the dropzone give steering instructions, etc, etc, etc...

I never read about any incident involving steering toggles cought in the side snaps.


Barry

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I never read about any incident involving steering toggles cought in the side snaps

It happened to my course director. He was able to clear it without chopping or cutting lines, but it was a rough one.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Still doesn't answer the question why you'd want to leave them disconnected?

I'll give you an example from this weekend. The landing area was incredibly muddy from it raining the entire previous week, while landing with my 3rd or 4th tandem of the day, my feet dug into the mud as we were prepairing to slide in a landing. What happened my student slid while the mud grabbed my feet and put me to my knees (almost to my stomach). If I had had the laterals still connected that could have quite possibly injuried me and more importantly, that could have injured my student.

Quote

I think I used one of these this weekend for the pre-second time

Out of curiosity, had you been taught how to properly adjust a Sigma harness? It is put on and adjusted VERY differently then a Vector harness and how it is designed, if you don't have the straps done correctly, the student could fall out of the back of the harness.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

Out of curiosity, had you been taught how to properly adjust a Sigma harness?

No, but had an experienced instructor check the fit before use on both occasions, although the student did seem to be sitting a little lower in the harness than I'm used to after opening. I will get a proper brief before I use one again. Thanks for pointing that out! :-S

Quote

It is put on and adjusted VERY differently then a Vector harness and how it is designed, if you don't have the straps done correctly, the student could fall out of the back of the harness.

Even with the laterals still connected? ;-P

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Even with the laterals still connected? ;-P

Actually, the specific incident I'm thinking of was on opening, the student happened to catch the harness with her hands and kept her from falling out butt first. It has to do with how the "butt strap" is adjusted and where it is set to be against the body.

In the end it was found that the instructor didn't know how to properly fit the Sigma student harness and had the "butt strap" fitted incorrectly, thus the student almost fell out butt first (on opening with the laterals still pulled tight and connected).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

In the end it was found that the instructor didn't know how to properly fit the Sigma student harness and had the "butt strap" fitted incorrectly, thus the student almost fell out butt first (on opening with the laterals still pulled tight and connected).

:-O

For future reference, Sigma Student Harness Adjustment Guide

It would appear that it is fairly common sense. As it says on the page,

Quote

The harness has 12 points of adjustment. Use them to totally surround and contain the student's body

and

Quote

After preliminary adjustment, step back and look at your student from every angle.

Make sure there are no "gaps" that anyone could squeeze out of, especially in the back

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[AggieDave 6]

Right, but apparently when the Sigma system first came out, the instructions weren't that clear on the harness, so folks were sort of guessing and trying to do it like the old Vector harnesses. Thus that happened.

Atleast when it is setup right, the Sigma harness is super comfy and the side laterals are nice and low, helping keep the chances of sidespins down.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mfrese 0]

I always disconnect, loosen, and reconnect the laterals. Gives you plenty of maneuvering room, but keeps things out of the way. I always have a hard time finding the D-rings on the front of the Sigma harness, so it's easier to reconnect to the rig.

Doesn't the Sigma harness rock! I bought one just to be able to quit dicking around with the legstraps on larger students. It's kind of funny the way some TMs are practically afraid of the damn things, though...just looks like too many straps, and the top hooks are in the wrong position. The ease of adjustment and the increased comfort for the student don't seem to be important enough to justify the expense, I guess...

As for telling the students, I ALWAYS tell them during the briefing that I'm going to disconnect the laterals. I've found that, generally, the more you treat them like students instead of sheep, the better they respond.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[efs4ever 3]

I've heard a story about the connector hooks getting snagged on the instructor's sleeve during a turn.

Like Barry Sez: "Skary"

Russell M. Webb D 7014
Attorney at Law
713 385 5676
https://www.tdcparole.com