Keeping one's mouth shut...

[vonSanta 0]

Noticed something funny about us low timers (I have 87 jumps).

We tend to want to give student jumpers advice when none is needed or even worse it's counter productive.

Case in point: an AFF student on level 6 - backloops and stuff. Great kid, bit shy, but really cool kid. Am always asking him how his jump went and what he's doing next. He asked me how I did the backloops and I had to bite my tongue and say "uhm, I did what the instructor said, what did he tell you?"

I try to keep my mouth shut when it comes to "advice" on doing stuff. My thinking is that his instructor knows this stuff better than me and will brief him better. It is, however, very tempting to go "oh when I did that, I just..." But I keep my mouth shut outta respect for the instructor and the well being of the student.

In my experience, most lowbies don't. We're too excited and want to share (I am as guilty of this as ayone). Am wondering a) is this a common thing found in skydiving or just an aspect of the skydiving culture in Denmark and b) how to, in a very diplomatic manner, tell other lowbies they better let the instructor do the instructing? I've said it in as diplomatic a way as I could and still gotten angry glares (and I consider myself a rather diplomatic dude).

When to speak and when not to? Pretty hard to say. My rule is it's fine to speak about the jump and the experience itself, but one should refer to the instructor for anything technical. Even if one sooo badly wants to say "this worked for me...". Bad rule?

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[SkySlut 0]

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Bad rule?

Yep, good rule...I shoot my mouth off quite a bit, but there is a time and place for it. I gotta say though, some Instructors may not or can not connect well with a student. Sometimes a lowbie opinion can be very helpful in certain aspects...but only in certain aspects....I.E. feeling, emotion & motivation...and not so much in technique...giving advice on technique can be dangerous.


Essentially...there is a time and place for everything. It takes a bit of discipline. Emotional discipline is not necessarily a strength of the average skydiver...no matter what experience level they may be at.

You know what though??? I still teach how to do backloops and turns on what it felt like for me to do them as a student...plus the stuff that my Instructors never told me while I was a student. Its a fine line...

[mwabd1 0]

I think that it's pretty poular opinion that if a student has a question you should always refer them to there instructor. Sharing stories at he end of the day is one thing, and yes it is hard to bite your tounge sometimes but it is for the students benifit.

[indyz 1]

I overstepped my bounds far too often in the past. Check out my posts from 2001-2002. At the time I had under 100 jumps and I didn't know how much I didn't know. Looking back, it's actually embarrassing. Even though I'm probably more qualified than I was a year and 150 jumps ago, I actually find myself giving less advice because I have learned, more than anything else, the limit of my knowledge.

[Ron 10]

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I overstepped my bounds far too often in the past. Check out my posts from 2001-2002. At the time I had under 100 jumps and I didn't know how much I didn't know. Looking back, it's actually embarrassing. Even though I'm probably more qualified than I was a year and 150 jumps ago, I actually find myself giving less advice because I have learned, more than anything else, the limit ok my knowledge.

Someone give this man a prize......He gets it...But he thought he knew enough at 100 jumps though huh?

Some people wonder why I am hard on newbies when they give advice....

Most times its cause they have no idea what they are talking about, and can cause more harm than good.

Hell I have been teaching since 1995....And if a student asks me a question...I direct them to THEIR instructor.

Way to many times we get all excited and try to help...Many times our "help" causes more problems than it fixes.

I was doing a tandem for a friend....She kept telling "advice" to the tandem student...You see my friend sucked under canopy....I mean really sucked...And she was afraid of her canopy control. She talked about it so much that the tandem student was becoming afraid....She transfered her fears to the student, and while trying to "help" made the student more afraid. I had to tell her to stop talking to the student...She didn't...She still tried to "help" her friend...I told her to shut up and not to talk to my student....She told me it was her friend and she would talk to her if she wanted to...she was trying to "help"...I told her that she had now scarred her friend..And that if she said one more word to her about canopy control...I was not taking the student up.

She also tried to teach the tandem student the Mantis position...and planned a really cool side buddies dive with the student.....Uh No.

If you don't know...don't teach...If you think you know but don't have the ratings...you don't know.

If you have 100 jumps....you know barely enough to keep yourself alive..... You don't know enough to give advice....Don't.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bodypilot1 0]

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I overstepped my bounds far too often in the past. Check out my posts from 2001-2002. At the time I had under 100 jumps and I didn't know how much I didn't know. Looking back, it's actually embarrassing. Even though I'm probably more qualified than I was a year and 150 jumps ago, I actually find myself giving less advice because I have learned, more than anything else, the limit of my knowledge.

Bravo! I wish more realized this...um...problem.
An Instructors rating before any advice is given would be better than giving advice that you think you may know.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[freeflybella 0]

Good post!

I think we're ALL guilty of giving advice when we shouldn't - no matter what the reason. Mostly I think it's out of enthusiasm. It's natural to want to share what you learn.

And it's SO MUCH easier to do in a non-personal way such as the internet.

I've often wondered, the folks who have the most to say - or the biggest opinions, would they say as much or would they say the same things if they were sitting around the fire with their peers and mentors?

Again, great post. Keep your ears and your mind open and you'll live a long happy life!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[AggieDave 6]

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I try to keep my mouth shut when it comes to "advice" on doing stuff

Here's my rule.

If its not my student I don't say a damn thing.

If the student asks me personally, I'll tell them a bit, but make sure that they understand they need to ask their instructor or the instructor that has been working with them and that's the most important thing.

If they're my student, of course I answer their questions to the best of my ability. Even if that takes a couple hours of my jump day.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[elfanie 0]

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I try to keep my mouth shut when it comes to "advice" on doing stuff

Here's my rule.

If its not my student I don't say a damn thing.

I'm curious if 'story telling' is viewed the same as "giving advice"?

Example: If I am talking to a student...and sharing my experience as an AFF student and what I did...is that viewed the same as "giving advice"? Because even if I don't say, "you should (do X)..." I'd be saying, "I (did X) and found that Z worked..."
??

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[pccoder 0]

I remember when I was in the middle of AFF and even a little after I would constantly ask advice of other experienced jumpers; they would always give me that same answer (speak to the instructor) and occasionally offer a little more about what they experienced. I'm not so sure that giving a little advice is bad. I figured at the time they were being both careful abot the information they would share with me and a little standoffish sometimes. Now I know better, they just didn't want to interfere with what the instructors were telling me. But, as a student you can sometimes get that feeling that experienced jumpers are being a little snobby by offering the canned answer of "speak to your instructor". I guess it's all part of the experience.

PcCoder.net

[velo90 0]

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From Elfanie ----
Example: If I am talking to a student...and sharing my experience as an AFF student and what I did...is that viewed the same as "giving advice"? Because even if I don't say, "you should (do X)..." I'd be saying, "I (did X) and found that Z worked..."

And now what VonSanta said

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He asked me how I did the backloops and I had to bite my tongue and say "uhm, I did what the instructor said, what did he tell you?"

vonSanta does something that is admirable, he thinks about what he is going to say before he says it. Even though he would like to say how he did things, he doesn't.

I hope vonSanta one day becomes an instructor himself.

[sducoach 0]

Slut's right on, as usual.

Sharing "experiences" is a great thing. Being an "expert and teaching" is something that you should do when you've been trained to do so.

All students want to share their new knowledge and it's great to be excited! The problem occurs when the information they have received may not be exactly correct or is skewed by "hanger stories" used to make us feel more "experienced".
One of my favorite books, "Quick to Listen - Slow to Speak". As you can guess, I have to read it every couple weeks or so..................

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[MarkM 0]

You also need to define what a student jumper is though. Someone on AFF I think should pretty much be hands off. It's a fragile time, frustrating even. You really want to be supportive, but you shouldn't offer advice or do anything that can mess with their heads.

Once they're past AFF though but still don't have their A, I don't see the harm in non-instructor advice even though they are still technically students. But I guess I feel that way because I'm in that particular student stage myself and I really like getting input on things from various people.

[SarahC07 0]

Not really on the topic, but a quote I kinda like ...

"If A is succes in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is X, Y is play and Z is keeping your mouth shut."

[billvon 2,991]

I think the key is how you give advice. I don't think it's a good idea for people with 50 jumps to tell an AFF student how to do backloops, but I also think there's nothing wrong with saying "when I tried it, it felt like . . ." or "what worked for me was . . ." People are naturally curious; they'll ask other jumpers about how to do things, and this is (eventually) how they will learn 90% of their advanced skills. No problem with starting early, as long as the person giving the advice makes it clear that it's just what it felt like to _them._

[PhreeZone 20]

How many non instructors or low time jumpers post on here then in less then 3 replies get shot down with the correct info from instructors or riggers? Unteaching bad habits is a lot harder the teching proper habits in the first place.

I've heard more then a few 100 jump wonders tell post AFF students that proper seperation is 45 degrees then it takes me 30 minutes to show them why this is not true. I've even heard 100 jump wonders telling how to do things like sitfly that are dangerous since they never cover issues like turning off the flight line, only how to get into what they think is a good sitfly.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[firediver 0]

It's not just skydiving, it's just human nature. I had a kid just out of paramedic school wanting to show me how he was taught to start an IV, while I was starting one on a patient. I know he's just still all giggly about being a medic now, but I think after sticking people with IV's for two decades, I kinda have it down. If there's a new cool trick, he can show me in the firehouse, not over the body of some poor guy who now thinks he's a show-n-tell prop..

Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary!

[elfanie 0]

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I've heard more then a few 100 jump wonders tell post AFF students that proper seperation is 45 degrees then it takes me 30 minutes to show them why this is not true.

However...being an instructor *also* doesn't guarentee that you have all of the correct answers..

One of my JM's..with 9000+ jumps, considered an awesome jumper, very very experienced, master rigger, TM instructor, S&TA, Pro rating, been doing this for years and years...
and HE told me the 45* thing...

Thinking you're right doesn't always mean you are.

There's good and bad on both sides....those with 10K jumps have the experience behind them, but sometimes they think they know everything and therefore aren't good at learning new (and sometimes better) ways...
those with 100 jumps don't have crap for experience and know very little, but they are usually good at learning new things because they are still open to learning.
Then you get the arrogant 100 jump wonder who knows it all and won't listen to anything.
And then you get the 10K jump person who will listen to a 100 jump person without rolling their eyes and dismissing them because of their jump numbers and thinks, "Just because I've been doing this since God was a child doesn't mean someone, even a 100 jump wonder, can't possibly come up with something useful...they might have something good to say."

I strive to be the 100 jump person who knows that they don't know crap, and wants to grow up to become the 10K jumper who listens to what somebody has to say regardless of jump numbers and knows that we never EVER stop learning.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[freeflybella 0]

Honestly, the one undiscussed/implied part of this discussion is that ALL skydivers - that is ALL skydivers, when truly recognising that skydiving is a sport that can kill you is - that you/we/everyone must take responsibility for saving ourselves, and check out every thing we hear with people we respect. Period.

Whether a student, a 300 jump wonder, or some 'skygod' with 15,000 jumps - we are ALL learning.

The point is not to follow blindly when your life is at stake.

And you can't trust that when you post - to track toward the dz on a long spot - or opening your main just mili-seconds from a headdown position to get better openings - or that X gear is OK for freeflying - that that info will not be taken exactly word for word because you happen to be a highly respected jumper.

On a public forum, and on a dz - when students are exposed to 'advanced' ideas or to any random yahoo who thinks he can 'coach' - we owe it to the 'newbies' to teach them that they are responsible for saving THEIR OWN LIVES and NOT ENDANGERING OTHERS.

Sure, give advice, but recognize that YOU ARE NOT THE OMNISCIENT SKYDIVER and that we should all be checking our answers.

Give advice and suggestions. Encourage questions. Ask others. Life is at stake.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[MarkM 0]

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How many non instructors or low time jumpers post on here then in less then 3 replies get shot down with the correct info from instructors or riggers? Unteaching bad habits is a lot harder the teching proper habits in the first place.

On the forums here, I've always enjoyed seeing those types of threads. Because not only do I see the question answered properly, but I see a wrong answer shot down and why it's wrong. Here everyone is looking over everyone else's shoulder. Though I suppose at a regular drozone, that might not always be the case.

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I've heard more then a few 100 jump wonders tell post AFF students that proper seperation is 45 degrees then it takes me 30 minutes to show them why this is not true. I've even heard 100 jump wonders telling how to do things like sitfly that are dangerous since they never cover issues like turning off the flight line, only how to get into what they think is a good sitfly.

On exits I've been told the 45 degree thing, been told to count 5 on one run, told to count to 6 on others. When I went out after another post AFF newbie, I was told to count 7 in that case. I figured the 45 degree rule was a "you're a newbie, you don't know what you're looking at, here's a rough rule" sort of thing.

[bsoder 0]

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Sure, give advice, but recognize that YOU ARE NOT THE OMNISCIENT SKYDIVER and that we should all be checking our answers.

I figure that if someone is asking me for advice, they are probably checking the answers they got from other people, or they will be checking the ones they get from me. Generally I'll tell them what I was taught, then end it with "but you should ask your instructors and others as well, get multiple opinions." That's what I do when I have questions - ask around.

[Ron 10]

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I figure that if someone is asking me for advice, they are probably checking the answers they got from other people, or they will be checking the ones they get from me. Generally I'll tell them what I was taught, then end it with "but you should ask your instructors and others as well, get multiple opinions." That's what I do when I have questions - ask around.

Why not just keep your mouth shut and direct them to someone qualified to teach them?

It kills me to see a 50 jump student teaching a guy with less jumps than him.....I mean there is a reason the USPA has ratings.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bsoder 0]

[replyWhy not just keep your mouth shut and direct them to someone qualified to teach them?

[Dolemite 0]

How does the old saying go??? Something like "Its better to keep quiet and make everyone wonder if you are an idiot rather than to open your mouth and prove to them that you are an idiot."

I always loved that quote...silence is golden in some instances.

-Dolemite

"Officially disapproved by the man"

[skychic68 0]

Excellent!!!! In all, our low timers at the DZ ask questions to instructors. I think we have prepared them well enough to seek out advice from those in the know. I often have students come to me and ask if the advice they were given is correct....perhaps another student told them. I think if you prepare students from the get-go for the potential hazzards of this type of thing, they will be more cautious.

Que sera sera