pccoder 0 #1 February 25, 2004 Was just reading through the CRW incident thread and thought a new thread would be a more appropriate location for my question? Remember, this is educational, not me wanting to go purchase a high performance canopy, so please be gentle. When did you experienced jumpers downsize to higher wing loadings? PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pullhigh 0 #2 February 25, 2004 I downsized about every 200 jumps in the beginning, it slowed down to every 400 as I got closer (and over) 2:1 Keep in mind, I'm not reccomending that, just answering your question. As far as what I'd reccomend, Be as familiar as at all possible with any canopy you jump. Know how it will react in every possible scenarios you can think of putting it in. Until you're proficient with every aspect of that canopy, you should not even consider a downsize. In this sport today, most of us downsize too fast, never truly learning everything there is to know about the canopy we are already jumping. I think the idea of "looking cool" pushes too many people into buying smaller and samller gear too quickly, but hey, what do I know.... Ganja "Waiting for a Life Flight never looks cool" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #3 February 25, 2004 When I could do these: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #4 February 25, 2004 QuoteWhen I could do these: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47 I can do all of that on my current canopy, but I'm not ready to downsize yet. I won't be downsizing until I feel I am wringing every last bit of performance out of my current canopy. Being able to do everything on Billvon's list may mean that you know your canopy and that you -can- safely downsize, but it doesn't necessarily mean you -should- downsize.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #5 February 25, 2004 Chris, The hyperlink above is an outstanding reference / guide. I weigh 180 and here's what I did. Nimbus 225 for 50 jumps Bogy 200 for 50 jumps - broke femur Raider 220 for 150 jumps Excalibur 170 for 200 jumps Sabre 135 for 400 jumps Stiletto 120 for 1200 jumps Velocity 103 for the last 200 jumps The numbers are approx and don't count my military jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #6 February 25, 2004 ok, I think I might have started high or something, cause I did the 1st jump on a PD260, then a couple on a PD Navigator 240, then about 20 on a PD Navigator 220, then about 10 on a PD Spectre 190, then have been jumping the Spectre 170 ever since. I feel the most comfortable on the 170. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #7 February 25, 2004 Accepted - Billvon's list is a minimum, not an indicator of a need to downsize. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #8 February 25, 2004 I am on a Spectre 170 loaded at 1.1 with almost 200 jumps, I'll probably stay on this same canopy for at least several hundred more jumps. While I'd love to downsize I'm simply not good enough with this one yet. When I can swoop this canopy and land on a dime, literally, at the end of the swoop, every time, then I'll get me a 150. If I knew every landing would be in a big field, I'd downsize like crazy. But off landings still scare me and when they happen I want to be able to handle them like a pro. On the plus side, keeping this canopy for 500-1000 jumps will save me tons of money. If I downsized twice in the next few hundred jumps (to a 135), which I probably *could* safely do, in that time I'd have bought two new mains, a new reserve, and a new container to fit the second downsize and new reserve. RWS only recommends one downsize per container and I repsect the manufacturers recommendations. I also like buying new gear so it would suck to have my brand new rig be useless in 6 months because of aggressive downsizing.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #9 February 25, 2004 Exit weight 171 lbs PD 265 for 14 jumps PD 235 for 33 jumps Springo 160 for 200 jumps Stiletto 135 for 200 jumps Vengeance 120 for 400 jumps Swopping about between Nitro 88, Vengeance 120, VX 99, Blade 88 for 250 jumps Finally settled for a velocity 90 for the last 40 jumps and hopefully the next 1000 jumps. I don't recommend this, it's just what I did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #10 February 25, 2004 Just out of curiosity, with regards to Billvon's list, maybe someone who has experience can answer this: Is it possible to do a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet on a 2.0+ loaded HP rocket?www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #11 February 25, 2004 I doono. Do you mean do it physically or survive it? :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #12 February 25, 2004 also depends HOW you want to downsize... maybe a spectre 150 which would be loaded slightly more would not be a too radical step. But in any case I am no reference for that kind of stuff, just my opinion in relation to how I used to fly at that time. better to talk about it to your instructors etc...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #13 February 25, 2004 >Is it possible to do a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet on a 2.0+ loaded >HP rocket? I can turn a total of 90 degrees from 50 feet on a 1.7 to 1 canopy, although the few times I've done it it's been a bit hairy. I'd want a bit more practice (on days with perfect conditions) before I tried it over 2.0 to 1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #14 February 25, 2004 OK, no flaming, good question. Here you go: exit weight from 225-240 Sabre 190 - 400 Stiletto 150 - 500 (roughly) Vengenace 135 - 250 Velocity 120 - 6 At about 750 jumps, I "upsized" quite a bit by getting a tandem rating, but started jumping Icarus Tandems almost immediately, so most of those I almost consider "high performance" canopy flying. I'm seriously thinking about a Velocity, but need to get another 10-20 jumps on it before I'm sold. I'm an old fart skydiver now (47), and I'm not entirely convinced that I need the thrill of a cross-braced. Time will tell...Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
elfanie 0 #15 February 25, 2004 Quoteok, I think I might have started high or something, cause I did the 1st jump on a PD260, then a couple on a PD Navigator 240, then about 20 on a PD Navigator 220, then about 10 on a PD Spectre 190, then have been jumping the Spectre 170 ever since. I feel the most comfortable on the 170. I dunno if you started high... I weigh about 140. I started on a Manta 288...jumped that throughout AFF. went to a Nav220...huge difference. Jumped that for...I'd have to look at my books, but probably 10 jumps? Sihouette 210..jumped that a handful of times. Silhouette 190 jumped twice...landed with it once, went to the reserve the second time so I've ever actually only flown the Sihouette190 one time. PD190 jumped once. Sabre190 I've jumped for the last 50 or so jumps. I jumped a silhouette170 one time in the middle of this (someone else was jumping my 190 to check something else for me, so I took the sil170). Now I have a Sabre2 170 that I just got from PD as a demo, but I haven't jumped it yet... so I have never even jumped a 1:1 canopy yet....but I also only have 78 jumps under my belt. (since September) but I can say that the Manta 288 was a flippin' BOAT!!! -------------------------------------------- Elfanie My Skydiving Page Fly Safe - Soft Landings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #16 February 25, 2004 huh... OK first was a tandem (no Idea how big) then static line for 9 jumps on HUGE mantas (around 300 I think).. I weigh just under 180 with gear, well maybe over 180 with the mantas 3 jumps Saber 2 210 6 jumps saber 2 190 INTEND 2-5 more jumps on the 190 (up to my instructor and me) 1 on a saber 2 170 for the rest of the year (and probably the next few) 400+ jumps min my new Lotus 170 This seems reasonable to me (feel free to disagree I haven't bought the lotus yet) I'm jumping at Skydive Chicago, discussion with various instructors there said that 170 at about my A license was fine as long as I was smart about shape (ie close to square) in more then one case I was told that they wouldn't be surprised to see me on a 150 .. and for a while I had delusions of a 150 Sam or stiletto.. then I pulled my head outta my ass ... but compared to some posts am I going fast? if yes ok but too fast? I land on my feet and close to my aim point (10M or less) My coaches say 170 is good (lotus and saber2 are close in shape lotus is actually a little more square) at the time I was thrilled now I'm a little bothered by the suggestion of a 150... maybe they were pulling my leg? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twnsnd 1 #17 February 26, 2004 Depending on your personal definition of flat turn, one being a turn in which the canopy remains as close to level as possible, two being little or no altitude is lost in the turn. The latter of the two is called a carve and can be done at ground level with sufficient speed. -We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mollusc 0 #18 February 26, 2004 Not very conservative but anyway, here is my list: I am 175-180 out the door PD and Drakkar 260 /280 - ~25 Navigator 240 - ~10 Sabre 190 - 2 Silhouette 170 - ~130 Safire2 145 - ~30 Sabre2 150 - 3 Crossfire2 134 - 2 I was actually planning on buying the safire2, and I was able to try it in almost all kinds of conditions without any problems. So I went to the little bit more extreme. I think the transition from Silhouette-170 to Safire2-145 was far less pronounced than the leap from the Safire2-145 to the Xfire2-134. The sabre2 was only flown in high winds, so I just couldn't get much ground speed and "swoops" out of it with my loading. I preferred the Safire2 openings though. I did not know that the elliptical shape of the Xfire2 had such a distinct effect on the flying characteristics (I obviously downsized as well). But still opens as nice as the safire2. Even though I have just done straight in landings so far, and I just love the response I get from it. So I just bought it Sorry that this turned out to be more a review than an answer to the question. It is my history of downsizing though. bs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 February 26, 2004 Brian Germaine recommends making at least 100 jumps at each wing-loading before down-sizing. For the first hundred jumps, keep wing-loading below 1 pound per square foot. After 100 jumps, you might try a canopy loaded at 1.1, but wait until you have 200 jumps before trying a canopy loaded at 1.2, etc. By Brian's logic, you would need at least a thousand jumps before trying any of the competition canopies loaded at competition weights (i.e. 2 pounds per square foot). Advance 0.1 with every hundred jumps. Just a rough guideline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #20 February 26, 2004 QuoteJust out of curiosity, with regards to Billvon's list, maybe someone who has experience can answer this: Is it possible to do a 90 degree flat turn at 50 feet on a 2.0+ loaded HP rocket? Yes. Think about it folks can carve them inches off the ground. You may not get a GOOD landing with a normal flat turn at 50 at 2.0+ (as in be ready to PLF) but it can be done. BTW I like they way you approach canopy flight...I have very few doubts you will be OK."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivexxl 0 #21 February 26, 2004 Out the door - 270lbs Hornet 230 60 jumps 1.17:1 Triathlon 220 800 jumps 1.23:1 Stiletto 190 100 jumps 1.42:1 Why hurry? I was able to swoop the SHIT out of my triathlon before downsizing to a stiletto, and the transition was pretty easy. Blog Clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #22 February 26, 2004 QuoteYes. Think about it folks can carve them inches off the ground. You may not get a GOOD landing with a normal flat turn at 50 at 2.0+ (as in be ready to PLF) but it can be done. Yeh, but the carve is done after a HP dive and planeoff, right? I'm thinking coming in steady "full flight", straight-in, to a small backyard, under a 2.0 Velocity, and at 50 feet needing to turn to avoid something. I guess that's where the PLF you mention comes into play. Then again, even straight-in these fast canopies generate a pretty decent swoop, to the best of my understanding, maybe even enough to carve some? QuoteBTW I like they way you approach canopy flight...I have very few doubts you will be OK. Thanks, like I've said before and hinted at above, most of my fears of downsizing come from the possibility of landing off. I'd love to fly a tiny Velocity one day and I'd probably do it a lot sooner if I was guaranteed large fields every jump. But nobody gets that guarantee, and I wouldn't be surprised if I'm still jumping this 170 at 1000 jumps. Really not setting a jump # limit though, just not downsizing until I feel as comfortable under canopy as I do behind the wheel of my car. The first time you try to park a normal sized car in a small parking spot it's scary. Now I do the same with my huge truck while eating with one hand and talking on the phone with the other, and it's nothing. I want to set my canopy down in a tiny backyward and be that nonchalant about it (maybe I won't have the burger in hand ) before I downsize. I really do wonder if all the people flying tiny canopies can do that. Unfortunately for me, flight is much more complex than driving (more dimensions and controls), and I get much less exposure time.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 February 26, 2004 QuoteThen again, even straight-in these fast canopies generate a pretty decent swoop, to the best of my understanding, maybe even enough to carve some? Maybe...I don't want to try it..I like walking, and hate getting my rig dirty just "to see". You can flat turn at 10 feet...You might not turn more than 10 degrees before you need to flair, but its better to not complete a flat turn than yank a toggle at 10 feet. When you can, try to crash with your wings level and PLF like your life depends on it...It just might. QuoteI really do wonder if all the people flying tiny canopies can do that Nope as proven by the body count. QuoteUnfortunately for me, flight is much more complex than driving (more dimensions and controls), and I get much less exposure time. For you and everyone else."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #24 February 26, 2004 You have the attitude that is going to make you an OLD skydiver (that can still walk). I wish people like you were in the majority in our sport. I have taken the time to learn as much as I can by going to canopy control seminars, courses, etc. I encourage you to do the same. By doing that, you will become more comfortable and nonchalant about doing something under canopy. Talk to Scott Miller, Brian Germain, John LeBlanc everytime you get the chance. Pay for coaching under canopy. That will save your life, not being able to Spock somebody or do 20+ points in 4-way. Keep it up you are on the right track. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 February 26, 2004 QuoteYou have the attitude that is going to make you an OLD skydiver (that can still walk). I wish people like you were in the majority in our sport. I have taken the time to learn as much as I can by going to canopy control seminars, courses, etc. I encourage you to do the same. By doing that, you will become more comfortable and nonchalant about doing something under canopy. Talk to Scott Miller, Brian Germain, John LeBlanc everytime you get the chance. Pay for coaching under canopy. That will save your life, not being able to Spock somebody or do 20+ points in 4-way. Keep it up you are on the right track. Right on. If you live long enough you will get the experience to do almost whatever you want.. If you rush it and get yourself killed/hurt...It kinda cramps your style."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
