President 0 #1 October 5, 2004 It appears many students are forced to have from 1 to 3 tandems before they can start their AFF course. Why is that ? I never did any tandems, which are just waste of money from my stand point, and started doing an AFF. So, is it just some DZs are being greedy or what ? I know my DZ is USPA member and I know for a fact they stick to USPA guidelines and whatnot and yet tandem is never considered as part of or a prerequisite for an AFF. Just curious.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 October 5, 2004 DZ's being greedy? Well, my DZ recommends 2 working tandems before transitioning to AFF. Those are working tandems. They save the student $300 dollars over traditional AFF. That's $300 that the DZ is not getting a piece of. I've seen first hand the level of training achieved by properly using the tandem training method from the ISP. Its absolutely amazing. Hands on training for canopy control, malfunction identification, freefall position, turning, and many other things. QuoteI never did any tandems, which are just waste of money from my stand point, and started doing an AFF. That's fine. That's why my DZ offers tandem progression, AFF and IAD, the student can choose what they want to do and learn with. Just because you don't understand the reasons for the progression, doesn't mean that its a "bad" progression and that the DZs are being "greedy." I can't account for every DZ, I just happen to know that at my home we're trying to turn out the best students we can, we're not trying to price gouge. If DZs were charging what they should charge, tandem jumps would be over $300 and sport jumps would be $50.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #3 October 5, 2004 Lots of DZ's do a modified program where the student does 3 or 4 tandems where they learn basics like altitude awareness, basic arm position, basic leg position and some times turns and forward motion while doing the tandems. Then they progress to a single JM dive where they start at like AFF 2 or 3. Usually students that go this route have a lower repeat rate then normal AFF students since their first few jumps have been under more controled situations.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
President 0 #4 October 5, 2004 I see. OK, so anywhere ppl on this forum mention tandem experience prior to AFF is their free will choice. Still don't get how come it *saves* me $300 ? Say I'm doing 2 tandems instead of AFF L1 - at my DZ tandem is $160 and AFF L1 with ground school is $280. This is $320 vs $280, plus with AFF L1 you get to deal with your canopy right away without further ado - you open it, you have to deal with malfunctions etc and you have to land it, all in your first jump. Anyways, thanks for your answer and....I'm happy my first jump was NOT made strapped like a drooling baby to his daddy's chest but a real one :) I just used to carry my little one on my chest like this - hence associations :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #5 October 5, 2004 They never woulda got me out of the plane on the first jump if it wasn't a tandem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 October 5, 2004 >I'm happy my first jump was NOT made strapped like a drooling baby to his daddy's chest but a real one :) Trust me.. a tandem is every bit as much of a "real" skydive as an AFF. And student cost extends past your AFF and goes till you get your A. You've got to pay coaching fees to get sign offs for probally another 5-7 jumps. A lot of hybrid programs knock those requirements out by jump 10 total. While it might cost you 280 for that first AFF, most TAF people dont have a AFF2 to do Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #7 October 5, 2004 Thanks Phree, you answered for me. I also wanted to add, as I stated in my first post, I can't speak for other DZs on costs, etc, just my DZ.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #8 October 5, 2004 Quote Still don't get how come it *saves* me $300 ? Say I'm doing 2 tandems instead of AFF L1 - at my DZ tandem is $160 and AFF L1 with ground school is $280. This is $320 vs $280, plus with AFF L1 you get to deal with your canopy right away without further ado - you open it, you have to deal with malfunctions etc and you have to land it, all in your first jump. How much it costs or saves varies by DZ, and of course by the results. But many programs involve just 1 extra (or no extra depending on the AFF program) jump and bypass the 2 AFF-I jumps, which typically adds 30-40$ per jump. Is it typical to video these working tandems when you have the student doing turns or foward movement? How well can the T-I evaluate as compared to an AFF-I who is on the outside? Canopy training aside, I think a big incentive is not wanting to teach FJCs to customers who are there to do a single jump and leave. By the time they've done 1 or 2 tandems, their motivation is pretty solid. And some of the material will make a lot more sense than for someone who has never jumped in any form. Considering how many of us didn't jump on the day we did our FJC (Monterey even has a stamp for it for the logbook), tandem start is certainly easier to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,312 #9 October 5, 2004 Smells like a bit of troll, ehh lad?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperoo 0 #10 October 5, 2004 I did my first jump tandem, and I absolutely think it was the right way to go. It eased my concern about jumping off of a plane, and I got to take some time to look around at the scenery and experience the freefall without watching my altitude every second, and being concerned about the canopy. I've had very little time to experience the sheer joy of freefall since I started AFF. It was nice to to get that experience on my very first jump, so that I knew what I had to look forward to once I got some experience under my belt. I would definitely recommend a tandem first jump to others. And, while I don't want to sound critical, I think the notion that you must be a pussy if you rely on an expert to initiate you into a life-threatening and frightening sport is macho crap. You have the rest of your life to throw yourself out of the plane alone. There's nothing noble about doing it on your first jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #11 October 5, 2004 QuoteAnd, while I don't want to sound critical, I think the notion that you must be a pussy if you rely on an expert to initiate you into a life-threatening and frightening sport is macho crap. You have the rest of your life to throw yourself out of the plane alone. There's nothing noble about doing it on your first jump. *** I agree, and I know of at least a handful of grown men who have turned into blithering idiots after leaving the aircraft for the first time. I don't care who you think you are, you really have no idea how you will react to freefall the first time, and I would be willing to bet some of those guys wished they had gone on a tandem first. I think it allows for immersion in the element without having to worry about all of the things that go along with an AFF jump. I did a tandem, and I'm glad I did. A skydiver is a skydiver no matter how he made his first jump.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #12 October 5, 2004 I cant keep up with all the new US programs, but the Canadian PFF programs requires IADs or tandems prior to the 1st PFF jump.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 5, 2004 Uninformed, non-jumping, potential students often storm right in and say that they "want to jump by themselves." Not just AFF, they seriously want to jump alone from altitude. They think they have it all worked out. It's normally the ones that are most gung-ho that give you the most problems in the air on real AFF jumps. I would much rather talk a sketchy walk-in student into doing a "working tandem" than having to wrassle his ass around in the air on an AFF that he, potentially, is going to do bad on because of his attitude. Me pulling you out at the end of an AFF jump that you were totally "turned off" on is no different than you failing to pull on a working tandem that took me six and a half hours less to train you for. We don't generally advertise Tandem Progression as an option, but I have on many occasions convinced people that doing well on a working tandem and skipping the Cat A AFF might be their best option. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #14 October 5, 2004 QuoteIt appears many students are forced to have from 1 to 3 tandems before they can start their AFF course. Why is that ? I never did any tandems, which are just waste of money from my stand point, and started doing an AFF. So, is it just some DZs are being greedy or what ? I know my DZ is USPA member and I know for a fact they stick to USPA guidelines and whatnot and yet tandem is never considered as part of or a prerequisite for an AFF. Just curious.... Just curious why you're jumping a 290 Navigator instead of a 150 Stilletto after 8 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #15 October 5, 2004 QuoteI did my first jump tandem, and I absolutely think it was the right way to go. It eased my concern about jumping off of a plane, and I got to take some time to look around at the scenery and experience the freefall without watching my altitude every second, and being concerned about the canopy. I've had very little time to experience the sheer joy of freefall since I started AFF. It was nice to to get that experience on my very first jump, so that I knew what I had to look forward to once I got some experience under my belt. I gotta second this sentiment! I am so glad I did tandems before my AFP. I, too, look forward to the day when my jumping will be as fun and relaxed as my 2nd tandem. AFP is very stressful for me, but I know there will be a day soon when it will all be worth it. I wouldn't know that if I had never done a tandem. (BTW, my program requires 2 before AFP and you learn alti awareness, exit positions, and basic canopy control/landing patterns.)"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattjw916 2 #16 October 5, 2004 I also did 2 tandems before AFF... while I am sure that I could have passed AFF I without the 2nd tandem enough people recommended it that it seemed like a good idea. Besides, a skydive is a skydive, they all count towards an A license.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justaflygirl 0 #17 October 5, 2004 My first was a tandem, i chose that b/c I was still unsure of the whole skydiving thing...(ha silly me! Hindsight is 20/20) However, i still recommend to my friends that have never jumped before to go tandem the first time, my reason, b/c you are just along for the ride, no stresses of doing your TLO's or worrying about anything else that level 1 jumpers stress about. In my opinion, by doing a tandem first, it allows you to fall in love with the thrill and excitement first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Douva 0 #18 October 5, 2004 QuoteIt appears many students are forced to have from 1 to 3 tandems before they can start their AFF course. Why is that ? I never did any tandems, which are just waste of money from my stand point, and started doing an AFF. So, is it just some DZs are being greedy or what ? I know my DZ is USPA member and I know for a fact they stick to USPA guidelines and whatnot and yet tandem is never considered as part of or a prerequisite for an AFF. Just curious.... Short answer: Students are less likely to brain lock right out the door, if they've already made two jumps. Long answer: Students are able to slowly acclimatize themselves to the feelings of free fall and canopy flight without being responsible for their own lives from the very beginning. Student injuries go down, and instructors die of heart attacks less frequently.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #19 October 5, 2004 I happened to do AFF but I know as many jumpers that did some form of tandem progression. As many have said Tandem Progresion varies from DZ to DZ but at my home DZ it is less expensive to do IAD progression (which consists of 3 working Tandems and then on to AFF Level 4.) I know some Dropzones actually have programs that take students to 20 or so jumps and follow the Integrated Student Progression as outlined in the SIM. (it is a bit more total up front expense... but it is also much more extensive and takes students through all of the requirements of the A-license.) Whereas in an AFF 7 level program the students are free to progress by whatever means they chose. (I was fortunate that I was able to find an outstanding coach at my home DZ to work with me.) ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites President 0 #20 October 5, 2004 Okay, points taken, thanks to everyone. Just to make myself clear - my question wasn't about "hey you're chicken if you went tandem before AFF" - just neutral question "why". And to be honest, the main reason (besides that I wanted to do it for "real") I chose to take AFF w/o tandem is because I actually find tandem much scarier. Why ? Do the math: tandem = 2 ppl/1 rig, AFF L1 = 3 ppl/3 rigs. As long as one of the JM is consious, even if I pass out or something, he'll help. Tandem ? One guy - and my life depends on him alone. Another thing (you may laugh) - I believe in fate. If this happens to be that guy's last day on Earth, he's gonna take me with him. Thanks a lot, I better go with my own rig and be subject to my own doomsday schedule :) Again, thanks a lot to all of you ! Blue skies ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #21 October 5, 2004 OK, I understand that but why are you jumping a tandem canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites President 0 #22 October 5, 2004 Hey, I'm not jumping a tandem canopy - it is state of the art PD Navigator 290 we're talking here :) Tandem canopies are like 500 sq.ft. aren't they ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #23 October 5, 2004 QuoteHey, I'm not jumping a tandem canopy - it is state of the art PD Navigator 290 we're talking here :) Tandem canopies are like 500 sq.ft. aren't they ? State of the art tandem sized canopy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites President 0 #24 October 5, 2004 Just checked your profile- holy sh$$$ !!! Yeah I see your point - when you're jumping a 79 ft with 2.5 w.l. even Stiletto would look like a tandem :) I'll be there someday, I believe ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigway 4 #25 October 5, 2004 you have confused me....why would someone on 8 jumps be jumping a 150 main? also where do tandems jump 270mains? i thought it was pretty normal to be jumping a 260-290 main as a student? Why would you suggest a student to be jumping a 150 already? if your post was sarcasim because you think he is PRESIDENT of the trolls....then i can understand, but otherwise are you sure you meant what you wrote? Please explain why...i am probably just missing something. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . 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Remster 30 #12 October 5, 2004 I cant keep up with all the new US programs, but the Canadian PFF programs requires IADs or tandems prior to the 1st PFF jump.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 October 5, 2004 Uninformed, non-jumping, potential students often storm right in and say that they "want to jump by themselves." Not just AFF, they seriously want to jump alone from altitude. They think they have it all worked out. It's normally the ones that are most gung-ho that give you the most problems in the air on real AFF jumps. I would much rather talk a sketchy walk-in student into doing a "working tandem" than having to wrassle his ass around in the air on an AFF that he, potentially, is going to do bad on because of his attitude. Me pulling you out at the end of an AFF jump that you were totally "turned off" on is no different than you failing to pull on a working tandem that took me six and a half hours less to train you for. We don't generally advertise Tandem Progression as an option, but I have on many occasions convinced people that doing well on a working tandem and skipping the Cat A AFF might be their best option. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #14 October 5, 2004 QuoteIt appears many students are forced to have from 1 to 3 tandems before they can start their AFF course. Why is that ? I never did any tandems, which are just waste of money from my stand point, and started doing an AFF. So, is it just some DZs are being greedy or what ? I know my DZ is USPA member and I know for a fact they stick to USPA guidelines and whatnot and yet tandem is never considered as part of or a prerequisite for an AFF. Just curious.... Just curious why you're jumping a 290 Navigator instead of a 150 Stilletto after 8 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #15 October 5, 2004 QuoteI did my first jump tandem, and I absolutely think it was the right way to go. It eased my concern about jumping off of a plane, and I got to take some time to look around at the scenery and experience the freefall without watching my altitude every second, and being concerned about the canopy. I've had very little time to experience the sheer joy of freefall since I started AFF. It was nice to to get that experience on my very first jump, so that I knew what I had to look forward to once I got some experience under my belt. I gotta second this sentiment! I am so glad I did tandems before my AFP. I, too, look forward to the day when my jumping will be as fun and relaxed as my 2nd tandem. AFP is very stressful for me, but I know there will be a day soon when it will all be worth it. I wouldn't know that if I had never done a tandem. (BTW, my program requires 2 before AFP and you learn alti awareness, exit positions, and basic canopy control/landing patterns.)"At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #16 October 5, 2004 I also did 2 tandems before AFF... while I am sure that I could have passed AFF I without the 2nd tandem enough people recommended it that it seemed like a good idea. Besides, a skydive is a skydive, they all count towards an A license.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justaflygirl 0 #17 October 5, 2004 My first was a tandem, i chose that b/c I was still unsure of the whole skydiving thing...(ha silly me! Hindsight is 20/20) However, i still recommend to my friends that have never jumped before to go tandem the first time, my reason, b/c you are just along for the ride, no stresses of doing your TLO's or worrying about anything else that level 1 jumpers stress about. In my opinion, by doing a tandem first, it allows you to fall in love with the thrill and excitement first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Douva 0 #18 October 5, 2004 QuoteIt appears many students are forced to have from 1 to 3 tandems before they can start their AFF course. Why is that ? I never did any tandems, which are just waste of money from my stand point, and started doing an AFF. So, is it just some DZs are being greedy or what ? I know my DZ is USPA member and I know for a fact they stick to USPA guidelines and whatnot and yet tandem is never considered as part of or a prerequisite for an AFF. Just curious.... Short answer: Students are less likely to brain lock right out the door, if they've already made two jumps. Long answer: Students are able to slowly acclimatize themselves to the feelings of free fall and canopy flight without being responsible for their own lives from the very beginning. Student injuries go down, and instructors die of heart attacks less frequently.I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #19 October 5, 2004 I happened to do AFF but I know as many jumpers that did some form of tandem progression. As many have said Tandem Progresion varies from DZ to DZ but at my home DZ it is less expensive to do IAD progression (which consists of 3 working Tandems and then on to AFF Level 4.) I know some Dropzones actually have programs that take students to 20 or so jumps and follow the Integrated Student Progression as outlined in the SIM. (it is a bit more total up front expense... but it is also much more extensive and takes students through all of the requirements of the A-license.) Whereas in an AFF 7 level program the students are free to progress by whatever means they chose. (I was fortunate that I was able to find an outstanding coach at my home DZ to work with me.) ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
President 0 #20 October 5, 2004 Okay, points taken, thanks to everyone. Just to make myself clear - my question wasn't about "hey you're chicken if you went tandem before AFF" - just neutral question "why". And to be honest, the main reason (besides that I wanted to do it for "real") I chose to take AFF w/o tandem is because I actually find tandem much scarier. Why ? Do the math: tandem = 2 ppl/1 rig, AFF L1 = 3 ppl/3 rigs. As long as one of the JM is consious, even if I pass out or something, he'll help. Tandem ? One guy - and my life depends on him alone. Another thing (you may laugh) - I believe in fate. If this happens to be that guy's last day on Earth, he's gonna take me with him. Thanks a lot, I better go with my own rig and be subject to my own doomsday schedule :) Again, thanks a lot to all of you ! Blue skies ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #21 October 5, 2004 OK, I understand that but why are you jumping a tandem canopy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
President 0 #22 October 5, 2004 Hey, I'm not jumping a tandem canopy - it is state of the art PD Navigator 290 we're talking here :) Tandem canopies are like 500 sq.ft. aren't they ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #23 October 5, 2004 QuoteHey, I'm not jumping a tandem canopy - it is state of the art PD Navigator 290 we're talking here :) Tandem canopies are like 500 sq.ft. aren't they ? State of the art tandem sized canopy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
President 0 #24 October 5, 2004 Just checked your profile- holy sh$$$ !!! Yeah I see your point - when you're jumping a 79 ft with 2.5 w.l. even Stiletto would look like a tandem :) I'll be there someday, I believe ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #25 October 5, 2004 you have confused me....why would someone on 8 jumps be jumping a 150 main? also where do tandems jump 270mains? i thought it was pretty normal to be jumping a 260-290 main as a student? Why would you suggest a student to be jumping a 150 already? if your post was sarcasim because you think he is PRESIDENT of the trolls....then i can understand, but otherwise are you sure you meant what you wrote? Please explain why...i am probably just missing something. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
