why tandem before AFF ???

[President 0]

Hey, does anyone have a problem with my nick ?
(BTW: I got it while in the military and it is very valuable to me, I'm not changing it !)

2BigWay: of course students jump 270-290 mains and tandems use something closer to 500.
It was a mildly sarcastic comment because I guess he thought I was doing macho talk.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Uh, nobody uses 500 square foot tandems anymore. The average is 350-370.

[President 0]

Really ? How do they handle big guys then ?
My friend's 235 - combined with JM's 200 it's 435.
Isn't it too high of a w.l. for a tandem ?

[AggieDave 6]

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Really ? How do they handle big guys then ?
My friend's 235 - combined with JM's 200 it's 435.
Isn't it too high of a w.l. for a tandem ?

Nope, not too big. You just have to know how to fly the canopies, they fly like modern sport canopies and have powerful flare. Its actually not too hard to stand up a tandem pair safely even in no wind under these canopies.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Spudmuffin 0]

As a really new student who is about to do her second tandem jump this weekend, I can't stress how thankful I am that the TAF program exists. I'm already nervous about starting the AFF progression and I'm still a ways off. For me the simple security of having "someone there just in case" makes me feel extremely comfortable. Being a person who doesn't learn well under stress, the TAF program is just for me.
That's my two cents.

[President 0]

Yeah, but in AFF (first three levels) you have TWO people to take care of you, and people-to-rigs ratio is 1/1 vs. 2/1 in tandem
OK, I shut up...

[dreamsville 0]

The largest canopy I jumped as a student in AFP was a 210. Part-way through the program they put me on a 190, and then I finished on a 170. I bought my own 170 Saber and used it for the next 700 jumps.

I think that it's good to learn on something that approaches the size canopy you'll be using when you are graduated from student status, personally.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[President 0]

You made me doubt.
Just called my DZ - it turns out I'm jumping Navigator 210 - I thought it was 290.

OK then, it's even better.
Now I see why there was a talk of a tandem size canopy

[dreamsville 0]

There are a number of DZs that still start students on large Mantas, such as a 288, so you could have been on something like a 290. Not knowing whether or not you were right to begin with, my point was that a student should get his/her learning entirely on a canopy that will be much larger than he will jump when off student status.
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I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[bigway 4]

president, i agree you should shut up with the ratio you keep coming up with as to aff vs. tandem and how many rigs per jump!
I am for AFF personally but you do not need to rubbish tandem proggression. For instance, yes you have a rig each in AFF but so what......? what about when the canopy is open and you are under radio control for landing but the radio f%^£$ out? or the spot was wrong? In this situation it is all up to you...a guy who has no experience what so ever under the canopy. Yes you should no your emegency procedure, but on your first jump is it possible you might freak out with no radio and complete silence under canopy 3000ft high on your first jump not understanding turbulance and flying into wind properly yet?
All these problems could be alot easier for you to handle or understand if you first do a tandem so you know the feeling of hanging all on your own by 2 straps and let someone else do the worrying. I know i would get shaken up as a student when flying into some turbulance or when my radio did not work and i landed 500 meters of the PLA.
Something for you to think about.
Enjoy electing your new president this year.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[President 0]

Relax, bigway - don't attack me too seriously.
You made good points, still it is not absolute truth.
If starting with tandem was absolutely the only right way to go, USPA wouldn't let anyone do what I did.
So - both ways have their pros and cons. I happen to like shock therapy - that was the way my dad tought me to swim (knocked me off a boat when I was 4) and the same they did to us in the Army.

I again want to thank everyone for their input - I now better see both sides of the equation.
Now I can be even more cunning in persuading my g.f. to do it

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yeah, but in AFF (first three levels) you have TWO people to take care of you, and people-to-rigs ratio is 1/1 vs. 2/1 in tandem

If you hesitate on the exit count you can lose one of those AFF-I's off the bat. A buddy did that on his first, and then leaped after him, taking the inside guy with into a nice good tumble. Turns out they fell past the first guy and all met up for a normal dive flow, but there's no guarantee. You are responsible for yourself and the two AFF-Is will do what they can to help that.

And how does it help you that the AFF-I has his own rig? From your perspective, there is still only one container with 2 parachutes. In AFF you wear it, in tandem it wears you.

The accident statistics point pretty clearly towards tandems as safer. The TM has at least several hundred jumps of experience in canopy flying and in potential mal experience.

[Shark 0]

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You made me doubt.
Just called my DZ - it turns out I'm jumping Navigator 210 - I thought it was 290.

I'd check again, perhaps in your logbook.
Not that it matters, but Navs are 200/220/240/260/280/300.
Never heard of a 210. You sure it's even a Navigator?

[President 0]

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I'd check again, perhaps in your logbook.
Not that it matters, but Navs are 200/220/240/260/280/300.
Never heard of a 210. You sure it's even a Navigator?

Yes, I saw the label several times when putting my stuff together after landing. As to the size - this is what I was told by our manifest girl today (when I called).

Okay, I'll check it personally on Sat.
But you're right - just checked on pd.com - Nav's only come in even sizes.

[jumperconway 0]

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Really ? How do they handle big guys then ?
My friend's 235 - combined with JM's 200 it's 435.
Isn't it too high of a w.l. for a tandem ?

At sea level in Texas, we use 190's for tandems, surfs up! We have 210'-150' Sabres for students. Our Students learn on 1/1 canopies basicaly.

[dropzonefool 0]

You mean Students learn on a one to one raito> 1/1
Student/Instructor

Not 1/1 wing loaded. Unless I'm incorrect I believe a 1/1 wingload is an expert level. One we all defie.

[dropzonefool 0]

The Question was WhY Tandem before AFF?
Tandem get a hands on feel for the landing. A canopy coach if you will, something you could explane in detail, textbook PLF'S....in a first jump course.

Tandems are spontainous, and can still be training- Cat B!

[jumperconway 0]

1/1.0 WING LOADING and that is not expert wing loading! That's beginer.

[bigway 4]

President, you aint doing very good are you.. So if you are a student and do not know what canopy is above your head, while at the same time saying that aff is safer than tandems proggression....do you know what size your reserve is or what that red handle pulls. My god what do you write in your log book for your canopy size?....State of the art navigator 290'?
Pay attention, you have seen the label that says navigator while packing......do you ask questions from your instructors of is the manifestor teaching you skydiving?
Get it togethor man......It seems to me that you have answered your own question, Why tandems before AFF?.....well a tandem master knows what he is doing and a tandem master knows his equipment, this seems to me to be a very important part of skydiving. You are getting on the internet and sounding like a troll who phones up the manifestor to see what sort of equipment he has. She told you wrong so now you check on the pd web site and guess out of the sizes they display? Did you not learn anything in AFF training? do you know how many cells your canopy has?
Mate if you are for real with all these statements you are putting out.....go and learn all about your gear cause right now it sounds a hell of alot safer to do a tandem first, and i was for straight to AFF before you posted this...You have converted me without even trying....or maybe you are trying..president of the trolls

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[Remster 30]

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If you hesitate on the exit count you can lose one of those AFF-I's off the bat.

No.

If you hesitate on the count, you should get exited by the instructors.

Remster

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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Really ? How do they handle big guys then ?
My friend's 235 - combined with JM's 200 it's 435.
Isn't it too high of a w.l. for a tandem ?

Every tandem rig is rated to a minimum of 500 pounds combined weight. I weigh 155 and have taken a guy 280 no problem.

[President 0]

Hello, Bigway, HELLO !!! Anybody home ?

Tell me how is your posting any relevant to AFF vs Tandem ???
I don't think with my 8 jumps knowing exactly how many square feet my canopy is makes any difference to me. With either size this canopy is very benign and easy to navigate, that's all I care about at this point. Plus, there's no guarantee I get the same size each time I jump - I just grab whatever's available. When I buy my own I'll know what I have. Now when I put the rig on nobody even knows exactly what color it is, to say nothing about size. And I couldn't care less - all I care about is that it is a student rig, period. I'll handle it whatever size it happens to be.
As to logbook entries - student logbook doesn't have an entry for size, plus my JMs never fill the equipment line anyway, only harness size (M,S or L)
The only really important info in a student logbook is progression - so next time instructor doesn't have to guess who you are.

As to safety: again, tell me how knowing my reserve size change anything in the emergency procedures ?
I don't give a damn how big it is - I know my handles, I know it is there and I checked the FAA seal, that's it.

[AndyMan 7]

Do not ever board an airplane you that intend to jump from without knowing size of both your main and reserve canopies. Ever.

You are rapidly approaching a proficiency in skydiving where you take responsibility for yourself. Start on your next jump, by knowing what make, model, and size of gear that you're trusting your life to.

Knowing the size of your canopies doesn't change your emergency procedures. It gives you the required knowledge to know if that gear is safe for you to jump. It is the most basic item in your gear inspection procedure.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[President 0]

Okay, point taken, will do.

I just didn't worry about too much because, you know, it's like explaining an 16 y.o. all about combustion engines while they just learn to tell clutch from brakes.

But I see your point, AndyMan, thanks !

[bigway 4]

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Hello, Bigway, HELLO !!! Anybody home ?

Tell me how is your posting any relevant to AFF vs Tandem ???
I don't think with my 8 jumps knowing exactly how many square feet my canopy is makes any difference to me. With either size this canopy is very benign and easy to navigate, that's all I care about at this point. Plus, there's no guarantee I get the same size each time I jump - I just grab whatever's available. When I buy my own I'll know what I have. Now when I put the rig on nobody even knows exactly what color it is, to say nothing about size. And I couldn't care less - all I care about is that it is a student rig, period. I'll handle it whatever size it happens to be.
As to logbook entries - student logbook doesn't have an entry for size, plus my JMs never fill the equipment line anyway, only harness size (M,S or L)
The only really important info in a student logbook is progression - so next time instructor doesn't have to guess who you are.

As to safety: again, tell me how knowing my reserve size change anything in the emergency procedures ?
I don't give a damn how big it is - I know my handles, I know it is there and I checked the FAA seal, that's it.



prsident....you either a troll or one ignorant person. If you took this post to a drop zone safety officer or a chief safety officer, it would be a pretty safe bet that you would be grounded until you realised what you are saying. What you are saying to me...maybe you do not realise it yet but....you are saying that you do not give a damn about safety, your life or the dropzone where you jump. I am not trying to be an asshole to you but i feel like i am sure others that you are disrespecting all the valuable time that your instructors have put in to you. You would not be allowed to jump at my dropzone with that sort of attitude. I dont care how many jumps i have as i am waiting for you to play that card but, i knew before i went up for level one AFF that i had to know exactly what was on my back and have some insight into the equipment i was putting on to save my life. You dont wait to find this out, you look after your self....You are a student who is sitting here telling us that wing loadings do not mean shit and everything we all value for our safety means shit. You are saying that 3 parachutes are better than one when you are learning....well you should not even be at the stage where you get to put a parachute on your back.
I read these posts and listen to things students say as it is interesting, i also learn from people with less jumps than me and more. Most students sit in this forum and give each other moral support and tell each other that they all felt the same, this is a great thing, but you....you are sitting here saying that tandems are better because there are three p[arachutes, you are saying you do not need to know what size your canopy or reserve is and worse you are saying it is okay to use different equipment every time you jump...well I wish i could say to you what i think of you but i think to be this ignorant you are a troll and am winding me up. If you are for real....give up skydiving before you kill yourself, this sport is not for you!.
Peace
before i get flamed, well i am just saying what need to be said to this ignorant ......
Sorry, maybe i should not call you a ......, but dude go to an instructor and have a sit down, say to him/her what you have said to me and ask them if you need to change your thinking or is what you saying safe. You are dangerous to yourself and maybe another jumper. I hope you are not doing solos yet.
AH...fu.k it, you are just trying to get a reaction and you have got one.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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