bigway 4 #76 October 7, 2004 you are a funny bloke mate, You should be concentrating on finishing AFF before jumping out of your own plane and landing in your back garden though. Man real tv would love that footage, but the FAA might pay more for it. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #77 October 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteTandems are a great way to get exposed to skydiving. But also not 100% necessary before AFF. Tandem progression might even be a superior teaching method than traditional AFF, but that's not what I'm talking about. I've said it before and I'll say it again: There is a very big financial benefit to a dropzone in requiring a tandem before AFF. I understand that. That's also why if you'll notice in my posts about this topic to newbies, I specifically state training tandems or tandem progression tandems or Cat A/Cat B tandems. I specifically seperate the "fun" tandems from the training tandems. Yes, my DZ is definately not the norm, BUT there are a lot of DZs out there that have a really good tandem progression method, similar to what is laid out in the USPA's ISP. So clumping all DZs together that "require" a tandem prior to AFF as money grabbers is very very incorrect. Actually, its kind of insulting. Oh, btw, as a side note, my DZ offers regular AFF as well as IAD, but only a few have decided not to do the tandem progression. Especially once they see the price break down. I've travelled to lots of DZ's around the country over the years. I make a point of watching how they treat 'students'. They sell tandem rides, Dave. Never been to yours, so I have no comment (except statistically speaking). What I have seen is new TI's glowing with enthusiasm over the viability of 'training tandems' and how they are great for the student. A few years go by and I revisit the DZ and talk to the same TI's and listen to them bitch about hauling the freight for cash. It is my sincere hope that your DZ is different but saying there are 'lots' of DZ's who have tandem programs designed for student learning doesn't jive with my observations. 'Students' will choose what you want them to choose. Once the decision to skydive is made, they pretty much place their complete faith in your judgment. You recommend the tandem, they buy the tandem. I mean no disrespect to you, Dave. Your joy and enthusiasm for what your are doing are great, but as H. L. Mencken once wrote, "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart". Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #78 October 8, 2004 I can definately understand your point of view. Especially since I'm still a newbie TI, I've being a TI for about a year and a half and have a bit over 400 tandems. Hopefully someday you'll be able to make it by Skydive Aggieland and we'll be able to show you a different side of tandem instruction and a well intrigrated student program.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MWGemini 0 #79 October 8, 2004 I'm still a student, just did my 23rd today (and owe lots of beer for it). My first 5 jumps were all tandem. On each one, I was taught a lot of new things. I'm not sure if my home DZ offers AFF, but the tandem progression they have works very well in my opinion. Before i went on to IAF (Instructor Assisted Freefall, jumps 6-10), I was able to do pretty much all the basic movements, including torso and leg turns, forward/backward, and delta/track/dive. While the last three were not very effective due to the drogue, I was still familiar with all the basics before moving on to the more advanced things. The pre jump briefings, discussion while under canopy (including instruction on how to fly the canopy, how ti worked, how to fly a good approach, etc), and the post jump debriefs were all very helpful and informative every step of the way. I wouldn't change any of it. While the vast majority of the tandem students at my DZ are one time customers, or perhaps come back for a few more jumps, the long term instruction is, in my opinion, better, due to the pacing of the instruction. it's been my experience that people tend to forget a lot when they are presented with a hundred tiny details all at once, but give the same details over a longer time, and it becomes second nature. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #80 October 8, 2004 QuoteI can definately understand your point of view. Especially since I'm still a newbie TI, I've being a TI for about a year and a half and have a bit over 400 tandems. Hopefully someday you'll be able to make it by Skydive Aggieland and we'll be able to show you a different side of tandem instruction and a well intrigrated student program. Get a CRW boogie going and I'm there! Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #81 October 8, 2004 QuoteGet a CRW boogie going and I'm there! Maybe a CRW boogie/wanna be training camp with some demos from PD? *head starts smoking from the hard thinking...* Hmmmmmm... --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #82 October 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteGet a CRW boogie going and I'm there! Maybe a CRW boogie/wanna be training camp with some demos from PD? *head starts smoking from the hard thinking...* Hmmmmmm... THEM TOADS always do that! In fact, we're doing it at Z-Hills over Thanksgiving. Tell you what, I extend my personal invitation. Come do CRW with us for the weekend and I'll spring for your Turkey Boogie fee and arrange for a Lightning for you (what's your weight OTD) [How much you want to bet, Val?] We'll even see about body armor and additional hook knives. What say you??? Michael Oh, and bring beer money ...lots of beer money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #83 October 8, 2004 Quote Tell you what, I extend my personal invitation. Come do CRW with us for the weekend and I'll spring for your Turkey Boogie fee and arrange for a Lightning for you (what's your weight OTD) [How much you want to bet, Val?] Oh man...that would be the bomb diggity! I already have a family commitment, though. This thanksgiving is when the rest of my family is meeting my wife to be, so I have to be in Sherman for thanksgiving and that weekend.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #84 October 8, 2004 QuoteQuote Tell you what, I extend my personal invitation. Come do CRW with us for the weekend and I'll spring for your Turkey Boogie fee and arrange for a Lightning for you (what's your weight OTD) [How much you want to bet, Val?] Oh man...that would be the bomb diggity! I already have a family commitment, though. This thanksgiving is when the rest of my family is meeting my wife to be, so I have to be in Sherman for thanksgiving and that weekend. Ok, she can't come, but, dude! they've already met you. Wuss! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucie813 0 #85 October 19, 2004 As someone who just made her first jump a few days ago, and did it tandem, may I "third" your sentimentAnd while it may make me sound both lazy and wimpy, I actually enjoyed having the instructor "do all the work"! That left me free to focus on the overall experience. I'm just one small voice in a big community, but tandem is something I highly recommend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ckeck 0 #86 October 20, 2004 As many others have said, I never would have jumped out of a plane for the first time by myself, hah...thats ridiculous ;) I think it should be mandatory to do at least 1 tandem before AFF. It allows you to get familiar with the feeling of how a jump goes, AA and some canopy control... I personally did 2 before AFF and learned a lot, and I would not change that. -Chad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #87 October 20, 2004 Go easy with the "mandatory" there... I know plenty of people that did 0 tandems before AFF and a lot of static line grads as well. Just because that method worked best for you, doesn't mean everyone needs to do it the same way. I did 2 tandems myself before ASP (an AFF variant) but that doesn't mean I think everyone should shell out $300+ for the same experience before moving on to AFF or its many spinoffs. Next thing you know, people will be saying tunnel time should be required before AFF. NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #88 October 20, 2004 QuoteA skydiver is a skydiver no matter how he made his first jump Randy...when did you become a skydiver? Now championship go-cart driver...yes. Seriously, Tandems can be a good introduction to skydiving. And like Randy said you never know how someone will react to freefall. I had to do a tandem for my first jump before my AFF jump (which I never did since the DZ was closed so much)...Then I went to a SL program and I found it much easier due to the tandem. I don't think its a bad idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
