Normal or reason for concern?

[FinlanderSisu 0]

Been Jumping like many from a c182, question is are they relatively safe generally speaking. Read a post in here somewhere had a crash on take-off. And my jump pilot also wears a Rig, ive just never been on a plane that thats the case. Not skeered just curious.

[slotperfect 7]

-When I was training for my Private Pilot's license here in the U.S., I was taught that the most dangerous part of an aircraft flight is takeoff.

-For pilots, there's a big difference between a "crash" and an "emergency landing."

-For some aircraft, FAA Regulations (FARs) require the pilot to wear a parachute - something to do with proximity to the open door. Therefore a pilot wearing a rig in a Cessna 182 is not unusual.

I PMd diverdriver, our resident expert on jump aircraft statistics, to chime in on this one.

Arrive Safely

John

[diverdriver 6]

  Quote

Been Jumping like many from a c182, question is are they relatively safe generally speaking. Read a post in here somewhere had a crash on take-off. And my jump pilot also wears a Rig, ive just never been on a plane that thats the case. Not skeered just curious.

Knowledge is power and knowledge can also be confusing. Hopefully I will empower you here.

182s make fine jump planes. They are simple, robust aircraft that can provide just as safe a ride to altitude as any other aircraft. You will see many 182 jump plane accidents over other planes because there are more 182s operating with jumpers than any other aircraft.

However, we seem to make very simple mistakes that cost us dearly with our 182s. I don't know how many times a year (way to many) we see accident reports made about 182s running out of gas after dropping jumpers and crashing off field. This is simply unacceptable considering we are 100 years since we learned how to fly! The regulations say we need to have enough fuel to taxi, takeoff, fly to our destination, land AND then be able to fly for 30 minutes more at normal cruise during the day and 45 minutes at night or IFR.

What's hard about this is that 182s are very tight on gas when you fill them with a pilot and 4 jumpers. You can read the jump plane accident reports I have for every year since 1982 on my SITE. Now, after reading them you may have the impression that jump planes are falling out of the sky all the time. This is not the case. You need to be aware of things that are going on around you and if you don't like something you see ask. If you feel your question has been blown off and you feel uneasy ask someone else the same question. Compare the answers.

Right now in general there are twice as many jump plane accidents per 100K hours of flying jump planes as compared to all of general aviation (other student pilots, private pilots and commercial pilots). This is something I have been saying for quite a few years now. This year, 2004, has been a slow year for accident reports (some accidents go unreported or under-reported) but we also have flown fewer hours because of the economic downturn compared to other years. There is no exact answer as to how many hours jump planes fly each year. It is an estimate at best and a SWAG at worst.

My suggestion to you is to talk to your jump pilot when he/she has time and ask all the questions you can about the ride to altitude. Ask what kind of training they received to fly jumpers. Ask how much total time they have and how much time they have in that type of aircraft. Get comfortable with who's driving. If you can't, you may want to choose another DZ or bring your concernes to the DZO.

As for pilots wearing emergency rigs I would be more worried about an operation that DIDN'T have their pilot wear a rig while flying 182s. If a premature deployment and take out the tail then it is highly advisable to wear a rig. The requirement for wearing a rig comes from a form that is used to certify a 182 for flying with an "inflight door". It states in there that the pilot should wear a rig. It doesn't come from Part 105 of the FARs or from the POH. Now, some "337s" (the form used to certify the door) don't require a rig on the pilot and so they choose not to wear it. I feel this is a poor decision as it does happen (a 182 was taken out by a premature and the pilot made his first jump a couple of years ago).

Look for signs of a dirty aircraft. Does oil coat the underside of the plane? Do they have to put oil in the engine every few loads? Does the underside of the wing look like it has blue streaks? (this is caused by fuel leaks) Does the engine sound right? Does it cough a lot? Do the people that run the DZ seem to have a cavalier attitude towards safety? What does your gut tell you? Listen closely.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[FinlanderSisu 0]

Thanks alot for the information, Really appreciate you guys. This website along with my home DZ make me appreciate the tight knit skydiving community. Im ex military, college etc and ive never been around people with the same camraderie and helpfullness, thanks again. Blue skies

[dreamsville 0]

Chris, is there any evidence to suggest that some 182 dropzones have limited funds and so may not follow maintenance procedures as rigorously? I know a couple of 182 DZs I have been to where they seemed pretty serious about maintenance and the planes were clean, comfortable, and "appeared" to be well maintained. As far as I know, flying a healthy 182 in good weather with a good pilot makes that plane as safe as any other.

Yes, I know of at least two Otter DZ that didn't maintain aircraft as they should. Those two DZs are not around now, but that was not the main reason they shut down.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[AggieDave 6]

A side note. A "clean" looking airplane or a "dirty" looking airpane isn't a good judge all the time. For instance, my DZ's 182 kinda needs a paintjob, the paint is old, but the plane is very well maintained. The painjob makes the plane look a bit "dirty."



Chris,

To toss my two-non-pilot-cents in...

In an engine out emergancy, I believe I'd rather be in a 182 then a King Air or something similar. 182s can land damned near anywhere.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[skyhighkiy 0]

ditto, one of our 182's has duct tape all over the inside to cover up stuff so you don't get snagged/tears, etc. some of the ceiling material is falling off, it looks pretty ragged on the inside, but I know the DZO absolutely babies everything about that plane that matters in flight. They really are treated as if they were his own children.

BE THE BUDDHA!

[sundevil777 102]

I thought that if jumping was planned, that everyone on board had to wear a parachute. Is this true? Maybe that rule isn't that simple. I know larger planes usually don't have the pilot wearing a rig.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tombuch 0]

Some are safe, some aren't. Ask your pilot about the operation, and get his sense about the safety of your C-182. With that said, the best way to understand flight safety is to take a few flying lessons and immerse yourself in airplanes. The second best way is to read a short article I wrote on The Ranch web site at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm called Piston or Turbine? (Article 14).

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[wilmshurst 0]

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In an engine out emergancy, I believe I'd rather be in a 182 then a King Air or something similar. 182s can land damned near anywhere.

In an engine out emergency, I believe I'd rather be under canopy...and I'm a pilot.

The only thing worse than a cold toilet seat is a warm toilet seat.

[riggerrob 643]

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A side note. A "clean" looking airplane or a "dirty" looking airplane isn't a good judge all the time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Maybe, but cleanliness still gives casual observers a rough idea of how serious a DZ is about airplane maintenance.
For example, our DZO insists that our junior pilot wash our airplanes every Monday morning. This does two things, first it slows corrosion (from all the strange chemicals in the exhaust).
Secondly, it forces her to look over the entire airframe. Loose screws, etc. then get written on a "snag sheet" that is handed to our AMO every week.
While washing, she also notices fluid leaks. Oil leaks tell you a lot about the health of an engine. A little leakage is normal from piston engines, while a lot of leakage tells you that you have blown a seal.

Which reminds me of a sexual joke with racist overtones.
Hah!
Hah!

• Quote

[JohnMitchell 16]

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leakage is normal from piston engines, while a lot of leakage tells you that you have blown a seal.

Which reminds me of a sexual joke with racist overtones.
Hah!
Hah!

And Nanook says "No, that's just a little frost on my mustache."

[JohnMitchell 16]

Just as important as the maintenance on the plane is the attitude of the pilot. I've been with good pilots that landed safely after losing an engine, not a scratch to the plane or passengers. I've known pilots that have killed every person on board of a perfectly fine aircraft, simply by flying like an asshat.

It's all in their attitude towards their flying. Safe, professional, boring is what you want. Any pilot giving you extra thrills on the way to altitude, or flying you in crap weather, is probably not doing you any favors.