Helicopter incident at Otay in San Diego

[stuffit 0]

This happened on Saturday the 28th around midday at Otay in San Diego. I was just thinking about it but not sure where to post it. I dont know if anyone else on this website was there but a personal helicopter flew right over the dropzone at about 300 ft agl with canopies at about 2-3000 ft agl. The helicopter was directly below the canopies. It was pretty scary. Just posting this in the hope that maybe someone that has some more information at the dropzone can do something about it to avoid future problems (like chopping up people under canopy). The helicopter was a small yellow personal one if that is any help.

[billvon 2,998]

Yeah, I saw that. I think it was an R-22. One of the problems that Otay has is that it's a common reporting point for pilots flying into Brown, so they sometimes overfly the airport when approaching. (Although it seemed like this guy was departing.) Unfortunately, pilots are not required to listen to any specific frequency once outside the class D airspace, so there's no guaranteed way to warn them off.

It goes back to being a VFR sport. We have to make sure we look outside and ensure that there isn't a helicopter a mile or two away headed inbound to the DZ. It used to be pretty common to see border patrol helicopters tooling around Brown; they got pretty good at avoiding us after a while.

[stuffit 0]

Yeah, I always see those border patrol guys but they fly out to the south over the mountains.

[quade 4]

Bill, if you saw it, you might want to file a NASA ASRA report on it.

Doesn't really do anything (for us) except publish a little education for a few folks, but at least somebody might read it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pchapman 279]

This is a bit of a pervere view of it, but at least it's better the helo was flying way down low over the DZ... as opposed to up at the more legal altitude of 2000 ft. There he'd be in more of a position to tangle with parachutes or parachutes just opening.

I thought aircraft are supposed to fly at least 2000' over airfields -- so that they are a thousand feet or so above the circuit altitude used by other aircraft. (I am assuming the DZ is on an airfield.)

[pilotdave 0]

There's no set rule about how high an aircraft needs to fly over an airport. Sounds like this one was departing anyway. Not a smart move to depart over the DZ, but not necessarily illegal. Typically pilots overflying airports try to stay at least 500 feet over pattern altitude. A lot of helicopter pilots don't bother with little details like traffic patterns and departing over runways though.

Dave

[VectorBoy 0]

Thats why at Perris we have a potato cannon......ooops I wasn't supposed to say that out loud..

[itllclear 1]

MOst of us jumpers would be surprised at how little most pilots know about skydiving operations.

I've given a number of FAA seminars to pilots about what goes on over a DZ and most don't have a clue.

What was most disapointing was the poor turnout at some of the meetings.

What impressed the pilots who did show up most were the NTSB reports showing that if the plane that hits a skydiver is smaller than a twin engine turboprop, the best the pilot can hope for is a tie.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[riggerrob 643]

You guys would have loved the old Hemet, California DZ. We took off from Hemet Municpal Airport, but landed a few miles away in Diamond Valley, at the East end of the new reservoir.
Since few pilots bothered to read maps, we had the usual Sunday drivers in Cessna 170s, etc.
Nothing quite like being in drogue-fall, watching a Cessna 170 fly directly underneath you!
Hee! Hee!
We were only permitted to land on Hemet Airport for a few months, but I still have a vivid memory of the pilot giving me permission to open the door and staring at a Bonanza that was just behind and just below us, on the same track at 10,000' AGL over the middle of the airport. If we had exited at that point, we would have JUST missed his left wing tip!
More fun!
But the most fun was dodging Brazilias, along with the C-130s, Sea Knights and Huey Cobras from the nearby Marine Corps Base.
At one point I contemplated complaining about Huey Cobras, until I remembered "Huey Cobras can fly anywhere they want to!"

[skymiles 3]

I was just coming out of my track when I saw him about to fly right underneath me. I slammed on the brakes and pulled, and was open in plenty of time. Not to worry though – I gave him the finger!

Phil

[relyon 0]

Quote

There's no set rule about how high an aircraft needs to fly over an airport. Sounds like this one was departing anyway. Not a smart move to depart over the DZ, but not necessarily illegal. Typically pilots overflying airports try to stay at least 500 feet over pattern altitude.

Helicopters rarely fly more than 500'-1000' AGL and most of those that do are on instrument flight plans. Higher altitudes do not give helicopters significantly more advantage in an emergency situation and may have significant disadvantages in some cases (eg. tail rotor or drivetrain failures).

Quote

A lot of helicopter pilots don't bother with little details like traffic patterns and departing over runways though.

They are not supposed to either. See FAR 91.126(b)(2), FAR 91.129(f)(2), and AIM 4-3-17. The specific phraseology used is "avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft."

That said, I avoid airport overflight at any altitude as much as possible unless directed by ATC. Even then I keep as alert as possible since it's my ass on the line. It sounds to me as though the pilot of heli in question needs a refresher in this area of operation.

Bob (commercial helicopter pilot)

[relyon 0]

Quote

MOst of us jumpers would be surprised at how little most pilots know about skydiving operations.

Unfortunately very true, but the reverse is true as well. Most pilots would be surprised at how little most skydivers know about aircraft operations and regulations. We are all responsible for correcting the state of affairs. I think real communication and education (such as the seminars you mention) on all sides is the answer, not hand gestures.

Bob

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Higher altitudes do not give helicopters significantly more advantage in an emergency situation and may have significant disadvantages in some cases (eg. tail rotor or drivetrain failures).

I don't see how higher altitudes don't give helicopters the same advantages as planes during emergency situations. What disadvantage does altitude give a helicopter during a tail rotor or drivetrain failure? I would just assume that more altitude means more time to recover from whatever the situation is, and more time to find a place to land, if need be. The only situation I can think of where altitude is bad is during a fire, when you want down NOW. But I dunno.

But as far as avoiding the flow of fixed wing traffic, that's interesting. Seems particularly dangerous to me. I guess I'm just used to larger, faster helicopters that can fit into the flow a little better. I jump at an airport with a big helicopter school, and I know they have a separate traffic pattern for the helicopters (right traffic for helicopters, left for planes).

Dave

[relyon 0]

Quote

I don't see how higher altitudes don't give helicopters the same advantages as planes during emergency situations.

More altitude does have the same advantages, it's just not significantly more considering the potential disadvantages. Their relatively poor glide performance (very similar to parachutes only much faster - 60-70 kts or higher) is more than compensated by the fact they need much less space to land and can handle poor surface conditions that fixed-wing aircraft can't. The net result it that helicopters have a lot more options when something goes awry at any altitude. A noteable exception is over water, and it' one of the few times when VFR helis are routinely operated above 1000' AGL; another is over dense population areas where there's far fewer places to put down safely and a lot more things to hit.

Quote

What disadvantage does altitude give a helicopter during a tail rotor or drivetrain failure? I would just assume that more altitude means more time to recover from whatever the situation is, and more time to find a place to land, if need be. The only situation I can think of where altitude is bad is during a fire, when you want down NOW. But I dunno.

Driveline failures in helicopters typically start in the bearings or transmission gearing. Tail rotor failures often induce further damage due to out of balance conditions. In most all cases the best thing to do is get on the ground as quickly as possible & practical. More time only gives the driveline more time to trash itself and it only gets worse, not better. Some driveline failures are catastophic (eg. intermeshing rotor systems like Chinooks or Sea Knights).

Quote

But as far as avoiding the flow of fixed wing traffic, that's interesting. Seems particularly dangerous to me. I guess I'm just used to larger, faster helicopters that can fit into the flow a little better.

Departure and climb airspeeds for helis (60-65 kts) are usually at the low end of those for fixed wing. Larger, faster helis have a little bit of advantage in that regard, but it's not enough if there's a light twin or something bigger behind them. On approach the speed differences are even greater as helicopters large and small are rarely over 35-40 kts below 200' AGL. (Only in the military or Hollywood will you see a chopper screaming along at hover skid heights).

If I do shoot an approach to a runaway I keep my airspeed and altitude reasonably high (50 KIAS & 300 AGL) until crossing the threshold and land mid-field or farther. If departing on a runway, I try to get off the extended runway centerline asap.

Bob

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

If departing on a runway, I try to get off the extended runway centerline asap.

THANK YOU!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone