Sabre to a Sabre2

[elfanie 0]

I know that they are totally different canopies, sharing mostly just a name...

But right now I'm flying a sabre190. I just got (today, actually) a sabre2 170 from PD to demo. I plan to jump it this weekend.

What can I expect to feel differently between the two canopies? opening? turning? flaring? Obviously I'm going to play up high....but I like to know what to expect as much as possible ahead of time...

for those of you who have jumped both...what did you notice was different?

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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[billvon 2,991]

You have two issues - differences on a canopy one size smaller, and differences between a square and a mild elliptical.

>opening?

Probably a softer opening, with slightly more tendency to "hunt" (i.e. turn back and forth) as it's opening. Body position will be more important.

>turning?

Lower toggle pressure for a given turn rate. More altitude loss in turns.

>flaring?

Sabre 1's have most of their flare in the first half of the toggle stroke. Sabre 2's have a more powerful flare, but you have to go deeper into the flare to get it all. Might be an issue for people with shorter arms.

[elfanie 0]

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You have two issues - differences on a canopy one size smaller, and differences between a square and a mild elliptical.

*nods*
I jumped a silhouette 170...but only once. soft standing landing...but, again, that was just once and that's a hybrid not a ZP. That's the only 170 that I've flown...

I'm about 140 pounds or so...exit weight would be around 160-ish. But I only have 78 jumps so far...so trying to stay relatively conservative on the canopies...I hope this isn't too much of a change too quickly...

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>opening?

Probably a softer opening, with slightly more tendency to "hunt" (i.e. turn back and forth) as it's opening. Body position will be more important.

So the sort of "shaking" on opening my sabre gives me that kinda tosses my legs around...that's going to be more of a problem with the sabre2?
What are some things to be aware of with body position? (I'm opening stable, no turns while pulling etc....and figured that most of the 'shaking' was from trying to create a longer snivel and softer opening from the sabre...but maybe it's my body position...?)

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>flaring?

Sabre 1's have most of their flare in the first half of the toggle stroke. Sabre 2's have a more powerful flare, but you have to go deeper into the flare to get it all. Might be an issue for people with shorter arms.

eep.
I'm 5'2"...with short little arms. I have 17" risers right now, but could possibly do with 18". Is this possibly going to be an issue for me?? And if so...what should I be on the lookout for? ie. what can I do to compensate if I find this to be an issue...and is there another canopy out there you'd recommend someone such as myself try out?

(and yes...standard disclaimer applies, I know...I am in contact with my DZO and instructors and such....)

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[pccoder 0]

I've never jumped a Sabre2 but always hear really good things about it. I did jump a Sabre 170 once. It stung quite a bit on opening, I had always jumped a Spectre 170 prior to that, and whoa what a difference.

PcCoder.net

[billvon 2,991]

>So the sort of "shaking" on opening my sabre gives me that kinda tosses my legs around . . .

I don't know. My legs don't get tossed around by even a Stiletto hunt-hunt-hunt-open type opening.

>What are some things to be aware of with body position?

Go back to a 'perfect' boxman after the pull and keep your eyes on the horizon, shoulders level. Don't look over your shoulder or anything; look up once you feel opening shock.

>And if so...what should I be on the lookout for? ie. what can I do to
>compensate if I find this to be an issue...

Take a wrap or two on the toggle just before you flare. Don't deflect the tail much, just get all the slack out of the lines until the tail just starts to move.

[pccoder 0]

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>Go back to a 'perfect' boxman after the pull and keep your eyes on the horizon, shoulders level. Don't look over your shoulder or anything; look up once you feel opening shock.

I remember during AFF my instructors always said after pulling to look over each shoulder quickly to ensure the bag and canopy have left the container and not bobbling around on my back?? (or potentially pilot chute in tow)

PcCoder.net

[billvon 2,991]

>I remember during AFF my instructors always said after pulling to look over each shoulder quickly . . .

That's appropriate with big canopies and especially with ripcord systems, but not so appropriate on smaller canopies. Looking over your shoulder can cause one shoulder to drop, and that can lead to line twist on smaller canopies. On _very_ small canopies the line twist may be unrecoverable.

[elfanie 0]

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>So the sort of "shaking" on opening my sabre gives me that kinda tosses my legs around . . .

I don't know. My legs don't get tossed around by even a Stiletto hunt-hunt-hunt-open type opening.

Hrm.
I saw a video of my husband's opening...and couldn't believe the difference. he just...went vertical.
Me? I get yanked enough that my legs swing forward and into a "sit" with my legs straight....then they go below me again and I get shook enough that they kinda flop around and knock into each other....

That's kinda something I'm a little hoping for with the sabre2...is maybe a little less dramatic of an opening.

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>What are some things to be aware of with body position?

Go back to a 'perfect' boxman after the pull and keep your eyes on the horizon, shoulders level. Don't look over your shoulder or anything; look up once you feel opening shock.

That's exactly what I do...
because I learned the first THREE times I jumped the sabre (ok, so maybe I'm a little slow) that I got some pretty hard riser strikes on the back of the head. third one just about took my helmet off and stunned me slightly.

Now I reach, toss, remain stable until the canopy yanks me vertical (doing so usually throws my head down and forward so that my chin is on my chest as my body swings forward), then have my hands by the risers while it snivels and watch it inflate and slider come down....

if I look up before then...I've gotten smacked pretty hard.

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Take a wrap or two on the toggle just before you flare. Don't deflect the tail much, just get all the slack out of the lines until the tail just starts to move.

*nods*
This is something I"ll have to check out in altitude...stall point, wraps, etc.
(as it is, my sabre takes 2 wraps to stall. I'll see what the sabre2 takes...)

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[ZoneRat 0]

Just a little thing that happened to me once...
I was demoing a canopy that was set up with Slinks and a string type collapsable slider. My regular canopy at the time had regular links and bumpers.

I was in the habit of pulling the strings down towards my head to collapse the slider. When I tried this on the demo it brought the slider half way over the toggles unexpectedly. I solved it, but it rattled my cage a little. Since then I pull those strings out to the side rather than down regarless of what canopy I fly.

Just one of those goofy little things no-one thinks to tell ya. So I thought I would.

Have fun!

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[mnischalke 0]

I've jumped both the Sabre 170 and the Sabre2 170 at a 1.3 wingloading. I found the Sabre2 to open much more consistently than the Sabre and it was a bit softer. It's got more taper than the original too, so it seemed quite a bit more responsive for both turns and in the flare. Like Bill said, the Sabre2 does emphasize the need for good body position on deployment, at least more than the Sabre.

Might I suggest you also demo a Lotus from Big Air? After flying both Sabres, I jumped a Lotus demo and my canopy search was over.

I got one of the first Lotus canopies with the new "eagle" trim and increased length in the Cs and Ds, which put the canopy in a class of its own. It was very quick, responsive and would surf for days. At the same time, it was also quite forgiving. Every person who flew my Lotus immediately took a shining to it, to the extent that the first person I let jump it when I decided to get a Samurai, fell in love and bought it straight away. His old canopy was a Sabre 170.

Hope I didn't muddy the waters too much. Demo lots and let us know what you decide.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[pccoder 0]

excellent, that makes good sense. thanks for the info.

PcCoder.net

[pilotdave 0]

I'm not a whole lot taller and I have no problem with flaring my sabre2 135, or the 135 and 150 I demoed. I can't compare it to a sabre, but I find that I don't usually have to flare it fully for a nice soft landing. Only issue I had was reaching the slider on the 150... so I just didn't collapse it. The 150 was my first ever jump on ZP, on my 100th jump. I couldn't believe the opening or the flare.

Dave

[skymama 37]

I love, love, love my Sabre 2 170. Make a conscious effort to put your feet together as it is opening, and it will help you while it's "hunting". Scott Miller gave me that little tip. Also, make sure you do a 2 stage flare. It's fun and you get a great surf out of it.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[nbblood 0]

I have a Sabre2 170 and a Sabre 170. I echo the importance of flying your body after pull time. It was an eye opener for me on what I was doing after pull time when I got the Sabre2. In the end I'm better for it, as now I'm aware and fly through deployment, not just to pull time. I was having line twists and off heading openings on nearly every jump until somebody made me aware of what I was doing to cause it.

I also learned, I wasn't completing the flare all the way through the stroke. I found with my other canopy, I was only flaring to about chest level. The Sabre2 helped me learn to continue the flare through the end.

I know other people that have ditched their Sabre2's due to bad openings,i.e., line twists, off heading, but my personal opinion is that it wasn't the canopy, it was the pilot. One guy at my DZ chopped his 3 times in a row. But his video, that he was wearing, clearly showed he peeked at the PC after tossing.

Bottom line, I love my Sabre2 and I definitely think it's made me better.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[rest 0]

Please describe a two stage flare.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Thats the thing you wont have with a PD7cell/PD9cell.

With F111/low cfm canopy, your point is minimize vartical speed on flare. With ZP, when you minimize vertical speed, you have a reasonable amount of horizontal speed: so stage 1: minimize vertical speed( make it 0 - level out), stage 2: fly on level an bleed out horizontal speed/slow down. :)

[rest 0]

I understand the principal, rather well put. How do you achieve this on a sabre2 with a 1:1 wing loading?


















;

[phoenixlpr 0]

The theory is that you should stop flare when you almost on the ground and let it fly on level and add as much flare to keep you on level. So exchange lift for speed. And when your speed is over just step down and smile :)

I had my mistake once: I have not finished flare just step down.......the result was a kindda hit the ground with the nose :). It was not painful ,bucause I had just a small amount of speed, but it was embarassing.

The only was is practice. I would try in light wind.

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah, when I first demoed a sabre2, I was taught to do a 2 stage flare. It was a windy day and I was coming down nearly vertical, so it actually felt a whole lot like my PD 9 cell on approach. At about my normal flare height, I flared to my shoulders. Felt pretty normal to me. Then my forward motion completely stopped and I started going straight down. I continued my flare, and popped back up a few feet. I just held it, let it settle back down, and finished the flare. Softest landing I ever had. I couldn't believe it could do that.
Dave

[phoenixlpr 0]

Ive started with F111/low cfm accuracy canopies. Ive though fast/ZP is not for me. Ive tried a ZP/hibrid, I dont wanna go back :). Speed is flare :).

[elfanie 0]

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I love, love, love my Sabre 2 170. Make a conscious effort to put your feet together as it is opening, and it will help you while it's "hunting".

Huh..I'm going to have to try that...with both the sabre2 AND the sabre, to see if that helps with the swinging/shaking...

I'm hoping that the sabre2's openings are, like I said, less dramatic...I come home from the DZ every weekend feeling like I have a moderate case of whiplash.
(maybe it's closer to shaken baby syndrome. )

I'll try the legs-together thing....

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Antithesis 0]

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Yeah, when I first demoed a sabre2, I was taught to do a 2 stage flare. It was a windy day and I was coming down nearly vertical, so it actually felt a whole lot like my PD 9 cell on approach. At about my normal flare height, I flared to my shoulders. Felt pretty normal to me. Then my forward motion completely stopped and I started going straight down. I continued my flare, and popped back up a few feet. I just held it, let it settle back down, and finished the flare.

Ohhh, I had a landing similar to that once with my heatwave.. Everything worked out just fine but I was doing a progressive flair on a slightly windy but gusty day. The regular wind @ the sock (on top of the house) was a steady direction but @ the ground they were swirling from some turbulence in strong gusts at times. I started my flare and my canopy stopped, almost caught lift, so I held it. As I began to ride it out I continued my flare when a crosswind gust hit me hard and turned my canopy downwind without loosing altitude(I was only about 4 feet off the ground) so I rode it out and continued my flare touching down unharmed.

I'll jump in medium to strong winds from time to time, I'm comfortable with that.. But not anymore when they can't be predictable.. The risks are too much for me.

I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky

[billvon 2,991]

>Please describe a two stage flare.

What a two stage flare is NOT:

It is NOT two separate places to put your hands. I see a lot of people do this; they put their hands in position A, then move to position B after they level out or after a few seconds. Doesn't work; it's like saying "depress the brake pedal two inches, then four inches, to stop before a stop sign 120 feet away."

It is NOT a discrete two step process, where you do one thing in step A and a different thing in step B. The process of flying the canopy doesn't change, other than increasing your lift temporarily to slow yourself down.

A two stage flare refers to the process of first arresting your vertical speed (the first stage) then bleeding off your horizontal speed (the second stage.) It requires constant adjustments to the toggles, both to maintain the correct amount of lift and to keep the canopy flying straight. It's very similar to landing an airplane. Watch a pilot land; he starts with some backpressure on the yoke while still adjusting for roll, and keeps adding pressure to keep the plane a foot or so off the pavement until the plane is about to stall, at which point it's going as slowly as it can. Same thing here. You increase the pressure on your toggles gradually while still flying the parachute until your vertical speed is zero, your altitude is close to zero and your parachute is about to stall.

This is tricky, and requires a lot of practice. That's one reason people start out on larger canopies; a larger canopy is more tolerant of people just hauling down on the toggles at the end of their flight to stop the parachute. As you get smaller the flare requires more finesse, which is the main reason that downsizing often _doesn't_ give you better landings.

[boxingrrl 0]

I think you've already received some good feedback re: the Sabre 2 vs. your Sabre, plus some tips on body position and flaring.

My personal experience-- I jump a Sabre 135. Last summer I demo'd a Sabre2 135. Loved it! Sweet openings, plenty of glide-- (important for me doing tandem video and being last out), and nice, soft landings.

You already know to play with it up high. I definitely recommend those practice flares to help you with your timing and figuring out if you need to take a wrap (or three).

I'd buy a Sabre2 in a heartbeat if I had the dough.

[katiebear21 0]

I made the same transition as I downsized. The biggest difference: packing!

Other than that, the 190 almost hurt when I turned hard in my leg area, the 170 made tigher/faster turns. You will notice it's quicker even though it only seems like 20 square feet.

I also felt like there was more flare in the smaller Sabre2 than there was in the Sabre. I could flare about half way and plane out for a bit before driving it all the way down.

Can't give you much else other than a personal experience.

Katie
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