The "First Person Down" Rule

[Breezejunky 0]

I’ve traveled to many drop zones, mostly in Canada and the US, and one rule that seems to be coming up more lately is “first person down sets the landing pattern”. I can understand the theory in zero or variable winds or in the case of DZ’s with an east/west or north/south only rule and the winds are directly crosswind, but mostly all I see resulting from this rule is chaos. A while ago, three times in one weekend the first person down landed inappropriately. The first time was in no winds and the first person didn’t hear what everyone else in the plane agreed upon for a landing direction. As nearly everyone was set up to land east, she was the only one to land west and there was no problem, but it did create a lot of uncertainty. The second time was in higher winds, the first person down failed to notice the winds had changed direction and there-by causing slight havoc in landing area, most people following him and landing rather uncomfortably. I chose to land in the alternate area but it was too late to set up a new approach for a swoop. The third time I don’t know what the deal was as every single person on the ground and in the air read the wind indicators one way and the first person down still believes we were all wrong. Due to people’s various proximities to the ground, half the aware people went one way and half the aware people went the opposite (leaving a few unaware people doing something else but that’s a different matter)



My question is this: why is that rule becoming so popular? It makes very little sense to me and from a safety standpoint I can see it doing more harm than good. Why should the rest of the load be held hostage to the first person down when they make a mistake (either in judgment, awareness or whatever) More often than not, especially with high performance landings, people are set up and committed before the first person lands. It’s not always easy to tell from above which way people are setting up. Is it for a 90, a 180, a 270 or what? Suddenly you have people in fast canopies and /or inexperienced canopy pilots trying to change their landing direction at the last minute and I hardly see that as safe.



I can see why something needs to be done, but I don’t think this is the answer. It doesn’t seem to be working. I have thoughts on what I think would work but as I don’t see many DZ’s operating that way, I feel I must be missing something.



What are some of your thoughts or experiences?

[bbarnhouse 0]

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What are some of your thoughts or experiences

First person down does work. In the case of Skydive Arizona, if you dont like the pattern set by the first person down, you are welcome to land off the landing area.
The wind here changes direction frequently, and when there are no wind days the direction is generally specified landing to the west.
Our main landing area of course is set up like a runway. You may land east/west or west/east only no matter what the winds are doing (generally cross-wind landings) with the first person landing according to the prevailing winds at the time.
By using the first person down rule, it cuts down the risk of canopy collisions.
We do of course have an alternate landing area where first person down sets the pattern into the wind. Again if people don't like the pattern, they are welcome to land off.
Skydive Arizona of course is different than many dz's in that there are so many outs.
There are instances where people come in the wrong direction after the first person has landed. With the amount of jumps made here, its going to happen, but is isnt as frequent as one would think given the volume of skydives made here annually.
The other factor is that the landing area is generally monitored. A person will get spoken to once. A second infraction will find them landing at the South (alternate) area.
Think of it this way...airplanes landing on runways. Seems to work pretty well for them...and pretty well for us.

[Tonto 1]

I tend to follow the landing rules set by the DZ I'm jumping at. Many are different, some even oposing, but almost all have been decieded on after much debate and careful desision making.

If I can't follow or fathom what I should be doing - I ask. Getting older has made this easier - as most people just think you're not too sharp - or understand your concerns.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[gus 1]

I think the '1st person down' rule is horrible and a disaster waiting to happen. If there's not enough wind to inflate a windsock for people to follow then put an arrow out and everyone lands in that direction regardless. If the conditions are quite variable and you're not happy jumping with a fixed direction then maybe you shouldn't be jumping.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Breezejunky 0]

I agree that in Eloy it does generally work. I think the real key is the heavy monitoring and perhaps a healthy dose of respect from visiting jumpers.
Is that the key then do you think, a well monitored landing area? I have yet to see it work anywhere else.
Is it even practical to try to set that rule for a boogie where people aren't used to it? Has anyone had success in implementing this rule at a small DZ that brings in a big plane for a boogie?
Does anyone jump at a DZ where they have a different solution to this problem?

[Breezejunky 0]

I like the arrow idea a lot. Seems like a very simple solution to me, but I don't see it anywhere except for students.
Why do you suppose that is?

[mr2mk1g 10]

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Does anyone jump at a DZ where they have a different solution to this problem?

Well in the UK you'll often simply be told the landing direction prior to boarding or exiting the plane by the JM. Woe betides anyone who breaks the direction.

We don't often have the same problems with variable winds though as some US DZ's. It's a relative oddity to have had the winds do a 180 by the time you get down.

Then there's the old brick under the arrow trick. That thing's gonna point where you want it if you jam it with a brick (etc). Simple rule then - always follow the arrow. This just needs constant monitoring, but then here we effectively have a guy dedicated to watching the PLA all day anyway. Again, this is more prone to difficulties where changeable winds are the norm.

Perhaps the first down rule was created by some of the really big US DZ's that also tend to have problems with variable winds. I guess many other DZ's might have looked to their bigger brother and thought - "well if X is doing it, perhaps that's the right rule to us", without realising the rule's created mainly because of the difficulties with winds they have at X and thus might not be the best solution to another DZ?

[Airman1270 0]

I jump a larger canopy and spend a lot of time riding brakes, frequently landing long after most everyone else has touched down. If the DZ is dictating the landing direction (presumeably as a measure to avoid collisions), would it be a big deal for me to land in the opposite direction, in the absence of traffic, if the winds should change?

A reply from DZO's who implement "follow the first guy" rules would be informative.

Thanks,
Jon S.

[gus 1]

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Why do you suppose that is?

I don't know. At my home dz they put it out in nil or very light winds. It's big, it's yellow, you can see it from >3k up and it leaves very little room for error. Makes sense to me but I guess it's just what I'm used to.

Hey BB, we've booked flights to AZ for March (forward planning!) so I'll come and try your crazy system out .

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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Perhaps the first down rule was created by some of the really big US DZ's that also tend to have problems with variable winds

I may be reaching here but I am pretty sure, like most things in the beginning, the "first down sets the pattern" rule stems from parachuting's military foundations. To this day, first man down sets the landing direction and the subsequent jumpers "stack up " and fly to the lowest man. The objective being to have all the jumpers within a very close proximity on landing. The obvious military reasons aside, as Betsy mentioned, is to avoid canopy collisions regardless of which way the wind is blowing. Idealy,everyone likes to land into the wind but if a downwinder/crosswinder scares you , you need to work on your canopy skills. Last time I checked(aside from field expedient methods), there are no wind socks on the ground when you land off. Sliding on the grass on all fours is preferable to impacting with the grass due a canopy collision at 50-100 feet. Hence, first down sets the direction.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rehmwa 2]

Just follow the local DZ rules whereever you are and be aware of the winds before you take off. If it's light and variable, then the landing direction should be decided and announced before landing.

And be careful, sometimes the first person down is flying a 'speck' and is purposely landing downwind for a swoop.

Never assume the first person down even knows what they are doing.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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Never assume the first person down even knows what they are doing.

Yes. And if he doesn't, or if conditions change before I get there, I'm going to land in the proper direction for me. However, I will do so away from the main landing area, so I don't create a hazard with cross-traffic going a different direction.

Hopefully, each drop zone with this rule has an alternate landing area where you can safely make your own landing direction.

[gemini 0]

I think one reason the arrow is not used at more dropzones is that it periodically has to be pointed in another direction.

I know on the Gulf Coast we can get 90/180 degree shifts under light/variable conditions which play havoc with the students and some experienced jumpers.

The dz must state the landing pattern to be used and enforce it. Coming in on final with canopies coming at you is not something that should ever happen.

Blue skies,

Jim

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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My question is this: why is that rule becoming so popular? It makes very little sense to me and from a safety standpoint I can see it doing more harm than good.

The rate of closure between high performance canopies swooping in opposite directions is 90-140 MPH (faster than freefall!) and even moderately loaded parachutes flown conservatively towards each other can close at 50-60 MPH.

In that situation, you're also combining three-dimensional approaches with people not evolved to evade flying predators and the tunnel vision which goes with high speeds. It's a recipe for disaster.

A collision at those speeds will be a lot worse than a down-wind landing; and you can always land way out and avoid that.

Your approach begins somewhere above 1500 feet. In theory, you could be close enough to the next jumper that changing directions gets messy. In practice, SOMEONE will be under a small parachute and in a hurry to land first. By reducing your sink rate it's easy to let them set a landing direction before you get to the beginning of your pattern.

An arrow set under human control would work better (IOW, not change once anyone dropped below 2000 feet), although first-one-down is still workable.

[meltdown 0]

"First person down" works fine in most circumstances, but I had a situation a few weeks ago that was kind of interesting. I was the low man, and expected to be the first to land, so I started my pattern. While I was on my base leg, a swooper came out of nowhere and beat me down. I was too low at that point to follow him so I stayed my course. Then, another swooper came in and didn't see me as I was on final until the last second, and was forced to abort his swoop. Well, of course I heard it from swooper number two about following the first down, blah blah blah, even though he landed in a direction that wasn't following ANYBODY, including the first guy down, or me, the first guy to start any kind of pattern. I talked to the S&TA and he said I didn't do anything wrong, but it still kind of pissed me off.

[riggerrob 643]

I have thoughts on what I think would work but as I don’t see many DZ’s operating that way,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

We are waiting to read your suggestions .....

[billvon 2,998]

>I think the '1st person down' rule is horrible and a disaster waiting to
>happen. If there's not enough wind to inflate a windsock for people to
> follow then put an arrow out and everyone lands in that direction
> regardless.

That accomplishes the same thing as first person down sets landing direction. The objective is to get everyone to land in the same direction, whether that direction is set by the first person or by an arrow. Both can be wrong, but in both cases it's not a big deal as long as everyone follows the same direction.

>If the conditions are quite variable and you're not happy jumping with a
>fixed direction then maybe you shouldn't be jumping.

One might say the same thing about people who are not happy landing in the same direction as the first person.

(breezejunky said:)

>why is that rule becoming so popular?

Because it can help prevent canopy collisions, and they are becoming more of a problem as people start jumping faster and faster canopies in more and more traffic.

>Why should the rest of the load be held hostage to the first person
> down when they make a mistake (either in judgment, awareness or
> whatever.)

For the same reason they should be "held hostage" by an arrow (which can be left facing the wrong direction) or "held hostage" by a standard landing direction - to prevent collisions.

>More often than not, especially with high performance landings, people
>are set up and committed before the first person lands.

You SHOULD NEVER do a landing approach that requires a 500 foot commitment into a crowded landing area! Choose an area that is free of traffic, an area where you can do such a landing safely. Crowded landing areas are not the place for 540's (or even 180's.) Either do a normal landing or a 90 front riser to landing; both can be executed during a standard pattern.

>Suddenly you have people in fast canopies and /or inexperienced
> canopy pilots trying to change their landing direction at the last minute
> and I hardly see that as safe.

Yet having them do exactly the same thing due to variable winds is better? The "first canopy down sets landing direction" works if everyone pays attention. "Land into the wind" never works when winds are shifting - such a plan virtually guarantees people crossing on landing.

[mattjw916 2]

I was reminded by the folks at Eloy once for landing the opposite direction but it was a wierd situation to begin with:

Otter loaded with ~15 people... all but three of us get out early... the three of us left head to ~14500ft. I was going to solo track and the other two were freestyle+camera, so needless to say, they were going to have a higher fall-rate, flew much smaller canopies, and pulled lower than me hence they beat me down by a huge margin.

Well, they landed so much earlier than me that they were walking into the hanger by the time I was collapsing my slider... there was no wind so I just landed at the edge of the grass and went to drop my gear off. The S&TA finds me later and asked me why I landed the wrong way, etc... I said I had no idea which way the pattern was because I was the only one in the air, but I assured him I don't usually land in the main landing area when it is occupied since, like Betsy said, it is usually a x-wind landing.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[skyjules 0]

As a new jumper, I try to follow the 'first person down' rule as much as possible. I mean I won't make a last minute change to follow this rule. I understand what you mean though. The first person down can make mistakes as much as anyone else. About a month ago we did a jump and the first person down landing down wind, and yes we all followed. I think jumpers should use this rule lightly and not forget that your landing is your own responsibility. Just a thought.
***Free bird Forever

[ZoneRat 0]

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It’s not always easy to tell from above which way people are setting up. Is it for a 90, a 180, a 270 or what? Suddenly you have people in fast canopies and /or inexperienced canopy pilots trying to change their landing direction at the last minute and I hardly see that as safe.

In cases like that, screw the first man down. He can't kill me anymore. But those still in the air can. I do what they do. If they want to follow him down, that's fine by me. If for some reason they don't, ok, I can adjust. If they want to land cross or down wind. I can handle that too.

If the group can't seem to figure out what pattern they want, I go away.

If i'm kinda at the head of the group, and I missed the direction the FMD landed. I go away.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter who was right or wrong, the only thing that matters is that no one gets hurt.

Here's my personal favorite. When the load pre-agrees on one direction and the first idiot down impulsively chooses a different way. Some follow him. Some follow the agreed direction. Everyone feels like they're right, but it's still a cluster fuck. FMD's safe, but the rest get caught in the confusion.

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.”

[Breezejunky 0]

And the rest of that sentence was "...I feel I must be missing something"

So if you don't mind riggerrob, I'd like to read some responses from others so perhaps I can see if there is something I hadn't thought of before I continue. I may decide some of my thoughts on the subject aren't so great after all.

Though now that I'm here...I am inclined to like the arrow. At the DZ's where I jump most, it would be very easy to implement. There is usually only one aircraft and it's not like someone would have to stand by the arrow all day, it would take one minute per load to have a quick look and change if necessary. Perhaps just using it when the winds are questionable. And even if it is the wrong way, at least everyone knows from 3000 feet which way they have to land or chose an alternate. Or maybe some DZ's have tried this and ít creates more problems than it solves. But I can't see how. (Again, this is why I'm asking)

Also, to one of Bill's points, if someone is set up to initiate a 90 degree carve, starting at 1-200 ft while someone else sets up for a 270 from 600 feet...well, you can see my point about being set up too late to change anything. The 90 guy might have been the lowest, but the 270 guy might be first down.

Or how about being set up at the far east end of a field to land west when someone lands east. What if there are no outs to the east, and you are too low to go west then 180 to the east. Not all of us jump surrounded by desert.

I can appreciate the theory but what I'm saying is that, with the possible exception of Eloy, I'm not seeing it work.

Also, to everyone who keeps saying "landing down wind is better than a canopy collision" (I've been getting PM's as well) Geez, thanks for the input...I hadn't thought of that...but that's not really my point is it. I'm not saying I don't want to land down wind or that everyone should just land whichever way they think the wind is from. What I'm saying is that I'm seeing more bad than good from this rule and I'm wondering what the solution might be. Why it works some places, or does it really work all that well, and why not in others. And are there better solutions?

[billvon 2,998]

>Also, to one of Bill's points, if someone is set up to initiate a 90 degree
> carve, starting at 1-200 ft while someone else sets up for a 270 from 600
>feet...well, you can see my point about being set up too late to change
> anything. The 90 guy might have been the lowest, but the 270 guy might
> be first down.

Which is one reason you shouldn't be doing 270's into a crowded landing area. The first-man-down rule requires the first few people down to not do foolish things.

>I can appreciate the theory but what I'm saying is that, with the possible
> exception of Eloy, I'm not seeing it work.

Works in Perris.

>Though now that I'm here...I am inclined to like the arrow.

It's a nice idea, but it requires 100% attention from the DZ staff. An arrow that the staff thinks about moving twice a day will be more dangerous than no arrow at all, because some will obey it and some won't (especially after a wind shift.) If you had someone who could dedicate themselves to the arrow (as Scott sometimes does at Perris with the tetrahedron) then it could work.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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I think the '1st person down' rule is horrible and a disaster waiting to happen. If there's not enough wind to inflate a windsock for people to follow then put an arrow out and everyone lands in that direction regardless. If the conditions are quite variable and you're not happy jumping with a fixed direction then maybe you shouldn't be jumping.

I suggest you re-read my post. I was merely stating that it works here.
Gus..we'll certainly look forward to having you here

[gus 1]

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That accomplishes the same thing as first person down sets landing direction. The objective is to get everyone to land in the same direction, whether that direction is set by the first person or by an arrow. Both can be wrong, but in both cases it's not a big deal as long as everyone follows the same direction.

They do accomplish the same thing but using one method everyone knows the landing direction as soon as they're open (if not before) and using the other there is considerable room for uncertainty.

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One might say the same thing about people who are not happy landing in the same direction as the first person.

If I wasn't happy then I would gladly land elsewhere.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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What I'm saying is that I'm seeing more bad than good from this rule and I'm wondering what the solution might be.

What you are seeing is people who pick and choose when to follow this rule when it suits their need(be it landing into the wind or swooping). Those who put their wants(into the wnd,swoop) before the rest of the load are not only being selfish, they are endangering others. FMD isn't a perfect rule. Hell, I'd call it more of a guideline or rule of thumb than a rule. Sometime the FMD is an idiot or Mr. Swooper decides to crank it down past the low man and set up opposite than the low man. When that happens everyone needs to make the decision to do the right thing and land in the direction of the "original" low man or land away from the group.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING