Where to go for AFF: SDU, Deland, Zhills, ETC

[Terminal-V 0]

Hello everyone,

I am about to start my journey into the skydiving world. I saved up the money and have the approved time off from work. My question is about Skydive university at Deland compared to places like Skydive Deland, Zhills etc. Is SDU worth the extra 500.00 dollars? Or is it better to just go to skydive Deland and do it through them. I’ve been told by SDU that the chance of a repeat level is very minimum do to the tunnel training. I have also read many places that people usually have to repeat a level or two when they train the conventional AFF way. Is SDU all that it’s cracked up to be or not. It’s been mentioned in such books as Jump and some others. In Jump by Tom Buchanan, my interpretation of the section that talks about SDU is that Mr. Buchanan put SDU on an above average level, Who agrees and who disagrees? Thank You everyone for your time and responses. I am trying to make the best decision possible when it comes to my path of training..

Thank You all,
Mike

[kelpdiver 2]

I can't comment on those programs, but tunnel time does have considerable value. Not everyone needs it, but I dare say most benefit.

$500 extra should translate to ~30 minutes in the tunnel, if that's the only difference between them.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I repeated an AFF level and it costed me about 120$ extra. I think that most people get off only repeating a level or two, and that wouldn't cost too much. Plus, tunnel time certainly does not mean you'll not need to repeat a level, it just means you probably wont repeat a level for lack of stability i'd think. I repeated my level for lack of altitude awareness, not lack of stability, so tunnel time would've done me no good.

It's up to you, I did my AFF in Sebastian. I had a great time there and I felt I got pretty good training although it'd be nice if more canopy stuff was included in AFF (but for the most part, that doesn't seem to be the case for any AFF program). Z-hills and Deland are also nice dzs and i'm sure either would work fine for you,... but for partying/fun, z-hills probably wins! I also got Laurie as a coach there and got my A license worked out in no time flat. Other dzs seemed not to want to help me out as much, so I would recommend sd city if you want to progress thru your a-license quickly.

Who knows what you'll need. You won't know if stability is an issue for you until you jump. Personally, I wouldn't pay the xtra 500$ up front, but that's just me.

-A

[kelpdiver 2]

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Plus, tunnel time certainly does not mean you'll not need to repeat a level, it just means you probably wont repeat a level for lack of stability i'd think. I repeated my level for lack of altitude awareness, not lack of stability, so tunnel time would've done me no good.

Ah, that's quite true. Tunnel time can make altitude awareness a bigger problem since you usually do turns of 1:30 - 2:00, roughly double an AFF jump time.

[skytash 0]

just to add, the SDU is a coaching programme after AFF, so in the first instance choose where to do your AFF. I would go an visit the DZs which are close to you and see which one you feel more comfortable at, ie do you like the instructors etc and do your AFF there. All DZs in FL have good instructors, so it's down to which ones you get on with!

After the AFF, check with your instructor whether they feel you would be better off with SDU or coaching based on the USPA A-licence system.

I'm convinced that people learn better if they get on with their instructors, so I would think that should be one of the main determinants as to where to learn.

tash
(PS - the parties are definitely better at Z-hills than at Deland from my experience!)

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[tombuch 0]

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just to add, the SDU is a coaching programme after AFF, so in the first instance choose where to do your AFF. I would go an visit the DZs which are close to you and see which one you feel more comfortable at, ie do you like the instructors etc and do your AFF there.

SDU offers a program that combines conventional AFF and tunnel time into a unique option recognized by USPA. See the SDU web site at http://www.adventuresinflorida.net/SkydiveUniversity.htm

I like the idea of SDU training from day one, and if travel is possible, I'd definitely go with that option. If a student can't travel or concentrate the training, then a local DZ with an AFF program also works.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Terminal-V 0]

Thank You for the link Mr. Buchanan

-Mike

[skymama 37]

I think everyone benefits from tunnel time but $400 for 20 minutes IS a lot extra to pay. Another option would be to go through regular AFF and then if you had stability problems to book a little time in the tunnel. There are tunnel coaches all over FL that you could hook up with, not just at SDU. I'm not knocking the SDU program, I've only heard great things about it. But if money is a consideration then that's just another way to go. Deland is my home dz and I know all of the AFF instructors. I know you would get great training from them also in addition to the SDU instructors.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[joeybob9 0]

Im in the "middle of aff, but dont have the cash for the rest yet" stage of AFF. I did my first few jumps @ z-hill and i have nothing bad to say about them... They were great with me. I also failed a jump and went to the wind tunnel cause I live right in orlando and it helps out considerably. You dont ahve to invest the $500 in it. I just did a couple of the little 2 minute blocks and told them what I was there for and they gave me some pointers. I plan on continuing my aff at deland in the next few weeks ... i now live about 20 minutes from there and about 90 from zhills. I heard a lot of good about deland as well.. Deland runs a few dollars cheaper, but I cant speak for the instruction. I know zhills was worth it... hope this helped

"When once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." ~da Vinci

[mattjw916 2]

Use the money you were going to spend on the tunnel for a ticket to Eloy and learn to skydive there instead.

You won't need the tunnel... I personally know loads of people that are badass skydivers and have never set foot in a windtunnel. I'd rather spend my money on actual jumps rather than rattling around a 12 foot diameter beer can.

FWIW I will probably do 5 minutes in the Perris wind tunnel when I am there next month just for fun though.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Kramer 0]

I graduated from AFF in ZHills while jumping with some of the best instructors on the planet. Am I saying you won't get this quality of instruction at those other DZs? No. But you'll definetly get it at ZHills. VERY highly recommended.

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Use the money you were going to spend on the tunnel for a ticket to Eloy and learn to skydive there instead.

You won't need the tunnel... I personally know loads of people that are badass skydivers and have never set foot in a windtunnel. I'd rather spend my money on actual jumps rather than rattling around a 12 foot diameter beer can.

Come on, Matt. How are you qualified to make either statement? I know you're were kidding at least a bit with the eloy one, but get serious.

Loads of badassed skydivers have migrated towards using the tunnel as a training aid ... AFTER they had already acquired years of skill in the air.

[mattjw916 2]

I stand by my comment... if you want to meet people who have thousands of jumps w/no tunnel... come on out to AZ.

You only work on one aspect of the dive in the tunnel. Just like ANY sport, the only way to get good at something is to do it, I agree the tunnel will help but it is not a requirement to be a good skydiver.

My opinion regarding this will not change regardless of how many trailing zeroes my jump number has.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Bodyflight.Net 0]

Hi Mike,

Let me address some of your questions.
SDU vs. Skydive DeLand.. this is interesting since SDU is at Skydive DeLand. Rob Laidlaw, SDU Head Honcho is very passionate about skydiving and the University is an excellent way to learn to become a great skydiver.
Is it worth the extra $500, I would say Yes.. with the added training & time spent with instruction, and with a little tunnel time, the SDU course becomes an all around experience and a great way to get started.
added: you'll be surrounded by jumpers of all levels training & learning, manufacturers doing demos, canopy classes ongoing, plus see team training. it's a whole experience @ deland.

Zhills & SD DeLand are really so similar, the only real difference I can see between the two from a student perspective is that DeLand is a full time student & learning environment and Zhills has more experienced/solo jumpers. Also the Landing area in DeLand (although shrinking each year) is much larger for students and has a great many markers & guides built into the layout to help students.
You'll also be likely to get a larger variety of aircraft at DeLand, but both have a wonderful fleet.

They are both pretty equal really so either way, your in the hub of it all.

Good luck!!

[NeedToJump 0]

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You only work on one aspect of the dive in the tunnel. Just like ANY sport, the only way to get good at something is to do it, I agree the tunnel will help but it is not a requirement to be a good skydiver

You can work on many aspects of skydiving in the tunnel. Not only do you improve your flying skills, you also gain body awareness as well as general awareness as you become used to flying on a column of air. With other people you can work on exit timing as well as communication. There are also limitless ways to improve your body flight in there.

As far the the tunnel not being a "requirement" - that is definitely true. There are many badass skydivers out there who have never been in a wind tunnel. However, it is becoming more and more used by all the top teams.

You'd be hard pressed to find many serious 4-way RW teams that do not use the wind tunnel. It has become extremely popular for freeflying as well - Alchemy and New School of Flight (1st and 3rd place at last year's US Nationals) both use the tunnel extensively.

Wind tunnels have something to offer every skydiver out there no matter the level. You definitely don't need to ever set foot in one if you don't want to, but it is an amazing tool and incredibly fun.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[Ron 10]

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I stand by my comment... if you want to meet people who have thousands of jumps w/no tunnel... come on out to AZ.

You only work on one aspect of the dive in the tunnel. Just like ANY sport, the only way to get good at something is to do it, I agree the tunnel will help but it is not a requirement to be a good skydiver.

My opinion regarding this will not change regardless of how many trailing zeroes my jump number has.
______________________________

wow....I bet you will one day eat these words.

People who use tunnels.

Airspeed
Knights
Majic

Need I really go on?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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SDU vs. Skydive DeLand.. this is interesting since SDU is at Skydive DeLand. Rob Laidlaw, SDU Head Honcho is very passionate about skydiving and the University is an excellent way to learn to become a great skydiver.

Yep, rob is a great coach/instructor

Quote

Zhills & SD DeLand are really so similar, the only real difference I can see between the two from a student perspective is that DeLand is a full time student & learning environment and Zhills has more experienced/solo jumpers

Uh, BOTH have full time instructors. Both are very professional. One could say that Zhills is better for a person off of student status since we HAVE fun jumpers. I have been to DeLand several times and had new skydivers making solos since my team was training...as were most other jumpers at the DZ.

Zhills has load organizing everyday.

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Also the Landing area in DeLand (although shrinking each year) is much larger for students and has a great many markers & guides built into the layout to help students.

Zhills is one of the largest landing areas I have ever seen. In DeLand you have to ride a truck back.

Both places are fine, professional places.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I am about to start my journey into the skydiving world. I saved up the money and have the approved time off from work. My question is about Skydive university at Deland compared to places like Skydive Deland, Zhills etc. Is SDU worth the extra 500.00 dollars? Or is it better to just go to skydive Deland and do it through them. I’ve been told by SDU that the chance of a repeat level is very minimum do to the tunnel training. I have also read many places that people usually have to repeat a level or two when they train the conventional AFF way. Is SDU all that it’s cracked up to be or not. It’s been mentioned in such books as Jump and some others. In Jump by Tom Buchanan, my interpretation of the section that talks about SDU is that Mr. Buchanan put SDU on an above average level, Who agrees and who disagrees? Thank You everyone for your time and responses. I am trying to make the best decision possible when it comes to my path of training..

Any program that is USPA will be fine.

SDU is a GREAT program. It does come at a cost.

A combination of tunnel/AFF could be done without the SDU program....But if cost is no object SDU is fantastic.

Any Large DZ in FL. will be fine. With winter comming all the large DZ's will be flying 7 days a week.

SDC is where I live. If you need to get your coach jumps done I will do it for slot after Oct.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MarkM 0]

Tunnel time helped me get through AFF without repeating and the coaching there also gave me some basic building blocks for skills beyond AFF. But I was wiped out after 15 mins in a wind tunnel. I don't know how well I would've handled 20 mins on day 1, then a skydive on day 2.

If the people coaching you in the tunnel are the same instructors that will be with you during AFF in freefall, I think that would be a big plus. If not, I would probably consider a smaller block of time in the tunnel with a coach, then a few days after that doing AFF at a DZ which has a good post AFF program. Ron's offer of coaching for you covering his slot isn't a small thing, post AFF coaching can run $80 a pop and you will require some amount of coaching to get your A license.

[okalb 104]

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wow....I bet you will one day eat these words.

C'mon Ron he has made over 40 jumps and has been skydiving for a year, so obviously he knows enough to make a statement like that. Especially since he has never been in a tunnel. The fact that EVERY "modern" champion in both freeflying and RW have come to rely on the tunnel as an extremely valuable training tool means nothing.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[Ron 10]

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C'mon Ron he has made over 40 jumps and has been skydiving for a year, so obviously he knows enough to make a statement like that. Especially since he has never been in a tunnel. The fact that EVERY "modern" champion in both freeflying and RW have come to rely on the tunnel as an extremely valuable training tool means nothing.

-OK

Well....Uh, ....Hell, I got nothing.

It seems that I get yelled at a lot for pointing that kinda stuff out.

How can a person claim that the tunnel is not a good training tool when:
1. The top skydivers use it.
2. He has never been to one.

I mean really.

You can do 40 jumps worth of RW in well...40 min.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[okalb 104]

He claims to know plenty of kick ass skydivers who have never been in a tunnel. My only response to that is this:

I know plenty of people who are kick ass skydivers with thousands of jumps who have never been in a tunnel before as well. I have never met one who would not benefit from flying in the tunnel. It makes no difference how good you are, the flying in the tunnel will make you better. The guys from Majic and Airspeed and Alchemy and all of the other top teams are fantastic skydivers and most of them already were fantastic skydivers before ever flying in a tunnel...so why do they all spend so much time in the tunnel now...hrmmmm...I wonder.

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[okalb 104]

Sorry for taking this thread off topic.

Z-Hills and Deland both have excellent student operations and I have no preference other than the fact that z-hills is my home DZ. As for the SDU program, I really don't have enough info on what they do to be able to comment. I will say that tunnel time will help a great deal with your AFF as far as stability, turns and confidence go.

Over the years at z-hills they have sent tons of students who were having trouble with their flying to the tunnel. If you do 10 minutes in the tunnel with someone who knows that you are going through AFF you will probably be doing all of the maneuvers required to graduate AFF by the time you are done with the session. I can speak first hand of a student who failed AFF level 3 six times. We took her to the tunnel for 15 minutes (roughly the cost of 1 level 3) and the next day she aced levels 4-7 and graduated.

You don't need to do tunnel time while a student...it is by no means necessary, but if you have the opportunity to do it, I strongly recommend it. Also, SDU is not required to fly in the tunnel. You can either work with one of the numerous tunnel coaches or just book a few minutes of time and when you get there tell the tunnel instructor that you are going through AFF they will work with you on the skills that you need.

Hope that helps
-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[okalb 104]

By your rationale, taking a canopy class is of no use because it only concentrates on one part of the skydive. Also, it is clearly not required to become a good canopy pilot.

It does however speed up the learning process and hopefully make you a better and safer canopy pilot. Could you learn yourself by trial and error and watching other people...sure, but why not use the newer training methods that are available today.

The same holds true for the tunnel. Sure you could learn everything on your own that you can learn in tunnel. Doing it in the tunnel substantially cuts down the learning curve. It also costs substantially less money than trying to learn it in the sky with a coach.

Most of the people who have thousands of jumps and a great skydivers that have never been in the tunnel learned the hard way because that was the only way at the time. There are better ways to do things now why not take advantage of them.

Sorry, but sitting on a plane and drinking with airspeed doesn't mean you know anything about how they learned to do what they do. I am pretty sure that if you asked most of them they will tell you that the tunnel has played a HUGE role in their ability to do what they do. As a matter of fact, a current airspeed member was brought on the team when she had less than 1000 jumps under her belt. That is thousands of jumps lower than the rest of the members..why was she so good. Well, she spent several years working at the wind tunnel.

Just like you can show me people with thousands of jumps that have never been in the tunnel, I can show you people with under 100 jumps that can probably fly circles around them because they train in the tunnel

-OK

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I deleted the chest-beating pissing contest in it's entirety; all involved should no better than to let a relevant thread get so far off-track.

Now, my opinion on the topic at hand:
I believe that any major dropzone in FL is going to give you the same professional level of training in AFF. Also, each and every one of them has systems in place to take you to the tunnel if you are having a hard time getting through a level. The tunnel is a fantastic tool for fixing basic problems that some people get early on in their training. Likewise, it is a fantastic tool for experienced skydivers to hone their art in new and exciting ways. No, you don't have to go to the tunnel to pass AFF or become a champion skydiver, but that's not the point. The point is that it IS a great tool when used with a purpose in mind. Well, for that matter, it's also a load of fun to screw around in when you don't have to spend your money on it.

Me? 254 hours in the cone at Fort Bragg. I have trained many, many people in the finer art of freefall stability in the tunnel (including Joan Lunden).

$500 is a lot to ask for the amount of tunnel time afforded by SDU. Like others have said in this thread, there are many, many people over in Orlando who would gladly coach you for much less.

Chuck