Jarcie 0 #1 February 20, 2004 Normally, I only ask my instructors questions instead of posting, but I haven't managed to find an answer to this question yet. I've heard that one should flare at 3-5 feet, 6 feet, 8-12 feet, and 10-12 feet. The SIM says 10 feet. Instructors: Does 10 feet off the ground mean that my feet should be 10 feet off the ground, or my eyes? (I'm assuming that 3 feet off the ground means my feet are that high...) I've actually managed some pretty good landings in the past, but lately I've been biffing almost all of them, mostly because I'm flaring at the wrong times. (I went from jumping the Nav 280 student parachutes to a Spectre 210. I'm flaring too high on the Spectre 210. I also jumped a Falcon 215 four times -- bad idea. Three of those times, I didn't even finish flaring, which is weird for me...) My bruised knees and back thank you in advance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Albatross 0 #2 February 20, 2004 Flying each type of canopy you need to learn the flare. The designs will make some have a longer flare than others. Also the trim on student canopies makes them different. The spectre is also ZP which makes flare more strongly. That said practice high and feel it. Then ask an instructor to watch you.Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffles 0 #3 February 20, 2004 I'm no instructor, however, I'm positive they mean from your feet to ground... Secondly, my friend (poor bastard) just bought a Falcon, and that thing has no friggin' flare at all. He hadn't eaten shit yet, until he tried landing that thing. I saw him leave a 3 foot trench with his feet in the taxiway. Thats kinda what you get when you jump smaller F111 I guess. The problem you have on the Falcon may be somewhat due to the canopy. $.02 . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #4 February 20, 2004 Your feet should be 10 feet above the ground when you initiate the flare. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salamander 0 #5 February 20, 2004 Quote I've heard that one should flare at 3-5 feet, 6 feet, 8-12 feet, and 10-12 feet. The SIM says 10 feet. Good luck with those landings... Any chance that you can stick with one of those canopies you mentioned for more than a few jumps. Your profile says 28 jumps, you said you have landed four different canopies. Here comes a bad assumption, but go with it... 28/4 = 7, 7 jumps on a canopy does not give someone who is having problems landing the best learning opportunity. My advice, find a canopy, learn to land it. Um... 3 feet??? I'll admit I am far from having witnessed every possible canopy land, but 3 feet seems dangerously low. I would have to see it to believe it. I would be interested to know if anyone can tell me of a student type canopy where a flare at 3 feet is acceptable? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #6 February 20, 2004 there are just way tooooo many factors as to how a parachute lands, to where you can't put hard numbers to it. Wing loading, the age of that canopy, material it's made out of, 7 cell, 9 cell, windy, not windy, down wind, in the wind, bla bla bla. It's a feel you aquire after jumping a peticular canopy over a period of time. Some people have it and land nicely right from the beginning. Some it seems like they will never get it, and land poorly on everyting they jump. Sticking with one canopy and learning that one is the best way to go instead of 4 or 5 landings on one, and saying "man, maybe I'll land this one better", and then do the same on that. Does this make sense?...or does it just make sense to me..my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jarcie 0 #7 February 20, 2004 QuoteYour feet should be 10 feet above the ground when you initiate the flare. Thank you! Why don't the instructional materials say they mean feet? Or am I the only person who's ever been confused by this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jarcie 0 #8 February 20, 2004 I appreciate the points that Salamander and linestretch are making about flying the same canopy until I can do it well. It was definitely time to get off of the Nav 280 student parachutes. My landings weren't always perfect, but they were getting pretty good. Also, these rigs use ripcord deployment, and the first thing I was supposed to do after I finished AFF was transition to throw-out. I plan to practice more with the Spectre 210. The only reason I flew the Falcon 215 four times was because the Spectre 210 wasn't available -- other people sometimes need it. I've decided it makes more sense for me to stay on the ground and wait if I can't get the right gear. I also talked to the dz about gear availability, and they're looking into how to accommodate multiple people who need the same rig. So yes, I'll fly the Spectre 210 until I can do it well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #9 February 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour feet should be 10 feet above the ground when you initiate the flare. Thank you! Why don't the instructional materials say they mean feet? Or am I the only person who's ever been confused by this? It seems odd that they would mean from the feet - you aren't looking at the ground from the perspective of your feet (unless you've had a particularly bad opening ) so how are you meant to be able to judge that? If that value of 10ft is from the feet it would translate into roughly 15 to 16ft from the perspective of the eyes of the student. FWIW, on my RAPS course we were instructed to flare at around 15ft AGL. On my first two landings off the radio I started flaring at about 30ft and 20ft respectively... my first ever PLFs and thankfully student Mantas are very forgiving. Hitting the sweet spot is purely a matter of practice.----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZoneRat 0 #10 February 20, 2004 A great way to practice flaring on the ground: Climb up a set of stairs to the height where you'd typically initiate the flare. Walk down the stairs. Keep your eyes about 45° forward and down. Slowly flare as you do so timing it so that the flare is finished on the second to last step. Do this several times at several different rates of decent. It's good to speed up and slow down some as you decend as well. This sorta muscle trains you to moderate your flare based on different conditions... Like getting a different canopy from jump to jump or having different winds, catching an unexpected thermal etc. Try it before you mock it. It's a great little drill.“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #11 February 20, 2004 As lots of others have said, the flare height really depends on the canopy you're flying. My old PD150 needed to be fully flared from probably somewhere around 10 feet. With my Sabre2, I've flared so late I had to lift my feet...but still had a nice soft landing. Just not possible to do that with any F111 canopy I've ever flown. I wouldn't worry about how many feet you should be flaring at. You probably can't judge the difference between 10 feet and 15 feet most of the time anyway. You've gotta just keep practicing until you find the spot where it works for you. If you know you usually flare too high, flare lower! Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #12 February 20, 2004 >Thank you! Why don't the instructional materials say they mean >feet? Or am I the only person who's ever been confused by this? I really hesistate to give anyone other than a first jump student a number in feet. Everyone perceives height differently, and one student's 10 feet is another student's 20 feet. So I watch their first landing, and tell them "flare half a second later." Then when they get it right I tell them to start memorizing that sight picture, and use that as their baseline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #13 February 20, 2004 QuoteYour feet should be 10 feet above the ground when you initiate the flare. I just love absolutes like this. So winds and canopy type make no difference?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #14 February 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour feet should be 10 feet above the ground when you initiate the flare. I just love absolutes like this. So winds and canopy type make no difference? This was in no way an absolute. It was a simple answer to a specific question: QuoteThe SIM says 10 feet. In my opinion as a jumpmaster, the SIM is referring to your feet being 10 feet off the ground. The question of variables was being covered all over the board. I simply answered the question asked. I certainly don't flare my Stiletto 89 at 10 feet in no wind on a cool crisp day. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mfrese 0 #15 February 20, 2004 Talk to me some more this weekend, Jennifer. I AM an instructor (though not AFF rated), and can give you some different things to try on the ground and in the air that will help you determine the proper flare point for the canopy and conditions. One question: where are you looking when you start the flare? You should be looking out in front of you, about 45 degrees or more, rather than straight down. Looking straight down seems to promote flaring too high, which seems to be the problem you've had most frequently. Anyway, come on out (even thought the weather is sketchy), and we'll do some work with you. If it's raining, we'll have an early safety day! See ya!Doctor I ain't gonna die, Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #16 February 20, 2004 QuoteOne question: where are you looking when you start the flare? You should be looking out in front of you, about 45 degrees or more, rather than straight down. Looking straight down seems to promote flaring too high, which seems to be the problem you've had most frequently. On my 5th AFF jump, after 4 perfect radio assisted landings, they decided to let me land on my own. I also decided, for some incredibly stupid reason, to look straight down below my feet on final approach. At about 40 ft, I flared hard and fast and held it. The canopy floated gently down to probably 20 ft or so where it started picking up speed as the stall worsened, I was still ignorant to how high I was, I was actually sticking my feet out expecting to feel the ground. I hit HARD and did an "unintentional" (since I was unaware what was going on by this point) back PLF, basically hit feet, then butt, then rolled over on my back, straight over my own head, pinning my face into my chest (miraculously not hurting my neck), catapulted to standing up, and I was just standing there thinking, WTF just happened? Totally unscathed, save some weird lump in my throat where my own collarbone dug in when I did the back roll. That lump stayed for months, but I got off INCREDIBLY easy by not breaking an ankle or anything worse. Moral of the story: listen to mfrese and DON'T LOOK STRAIGHT DOWN! Look forward at 45 degrees. :) I actually became so paranoid of this happening again, for my next 20 or so jumps, I would keep my neck perfectly straight, so that only by moving my eyes down in their sockets as far as I could, could I see 45 degrees below horizontal. I basically made it impossible to look any further past 45. Though me coming in all stiff necked often scared the shit out of the other jumpers as they thought I was locking up. Only after many successful landings did I relax enough to actually bend my neck and allow my head and eyes to both aim at 45 below the horizontal. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jarcie 0 #17 February 20, 2004 Mike, I'll be out soon, although it looks like this weekend won't happen. I definitely don't think I can solve my landing problems online. I just thought it would help to get a better understanding of what the suggested numbers are supposed to mean. I thought that 3-5 feet from one's feet and 8-12 feet from one's eyes might not actually be different things. But now my understanding is that all the heights are measuring the distance from the jumper's feet to the ground. Every time I've asked this question, I've ended up in a more general discussion of landing (which I need!), but I haven't actually gotten the question answered. (Thanks, GravityGirl!) If you want to work with me on my landings, I'd be delighted! Hope to see you soon, Jennifer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #18 February 20, 2004 QuoteEvery time I've asked this question, I've ended up in a more general discussion of landing (which I need!), but I haven't actually gotten the question answered. That's because the specific answer to your question is totally irrelevant, as you can read in all the responses above. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jarcie 0 #19 February 20, 2004 QuoteThat's because the specific answer to your question is totally irrelevant, as you can read in all the responses above. This is one of the reasons I don't normally post skydiving-related questions on here. Based on your profile, you have no instructor ratings and 165 jumps. This question was directed to instructors. I realize that the small piece of information I requested is not the entire picture, but it is not irrelevant. It is information I needed in order to get a better understanding of the bigger picture. The bigger picture cannot be addressed in its entirety here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #20 February 20, 2004 QuoteI realize that the small piece of information I requested is not the entire picture, but it is not irrelevant. It is information I needed in order to get a better understanding of the bigger picture. The bigger picture cannot be addressed in its entirety here. A good point... while it's true there's no absolute and "flare height" is a specific thing for each person and canopy, a ballpark figure is of large value, and there is a huge difference between 3 ft and 10 ft. I'm kind of curious where the hell you heard to flare at 3 feet?!www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salamander 0 #21 February 20, 2004 QuoteI appreciate the points that Salamander and linestretch are making about flying the same canopy until I can do it well. I should mention no real harm was done by trying different canopies. It may have slowed down your learning of landings, however, you WILL figure out how to land. Also, the experience under the falcon could be priceless. If I am not mistaken, it is the only F111 canopy you have flown to date. Chances are your reserve is F111. That experience could prove very comforting if you ever find yourself under a reserve in less than ideal situations. As for the not answering your question deal. Sorry, not much anyone can do about that. I am sure very few instructors are keen on definite heights for flaring. It just isn't that straightforward. So I would say... whether you assume feet, head or hips for a given height is less important than the issue of figuring out when to flare so that YOU land happily. No number in a manual is going to help you with that. I know this is a redirection, but I hope it makes sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jarcie 0 #22 February 20, 2004 QuoteI know this is a redirection, but I hope it makes sense. It does. Thanks. Edited to add: I still would have found it helpful if the SIM had specified that the distance was from the jumper's feet, not eyes. If they're going to provide a definite number, they could provide a body part for reference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salamander 0 #23 February 20, 2004 Quote I still would have found it helpful if the SIM had specified that the distance was from the jumper's feet, not eyes. If they're going to provide a definite number, they could provide a body part for reference. I am not USPA instructor and have never read the SIMS, so I can't comment. But if it is unclear, perhaps you should send an email to a USPA representative in your area. If you are having issues with this - you probably aren't the first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dterrick 0 #24 February 21, 2004 Heya Jarcie, Good question. Now here's the un-typical (but still "guy") aproach to the problem of judging altitude. Got a detatched garage by chance? If you do (and if your neighbors won;t think badly of you), get up on the roof. I think you'll find that the peak of most garage roofs is about 12 ft high. convenient, yes? Now, look down one of the slope sides as you stand on the peak. Do some imagining and I bet you'll find the picture looks similar. THAT is the "10-12 ft above the ground" picture that I suspect your instructors were after. Really, your eyes are at about 15 ft up - much like looking out a second story window. The garage roof is more fun, though, and you can imagine the slope of the roof is your "glide path". No "go practise accuracy landings in your neighbor's backyardDave (..soon to be a Jr. instructor...) PS: I've demo flown Spectres at about 1.2:1 and they have HUGE flare power. I wonder if part of your issue is the fact that 7 cells glide at a steer angle and your sight picture has not so quickly adapted? PPS: Never EVER fly an original Raven if you think the Falcon was hard on the landing . I've had more than my share of, um, forced matings with Mother Earth Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcneill79 0 #25 February 23, 2004 QuoteThe only reason I flew the Falcon 215 four times was because the Spectre 210 wasn't available -- other people sometimes need it. Awww... now I feel bad about stealing the canopy away from you We definitely need to figure something out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
