How low would you go??

[Stumpy 284]

What - you mean that scene in Dropzone isnt accurate??!!

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[sabr190 0]

LOL.........you are the man

Let's just work on your free-fall skills for now, you can be my bullseye later

Oh, by the way. We will only be open on Saturday, due to everyone going out of town except me. Could be a good day for you, no first jump courses, no tandems, just fun jumpers and students off radio and static-line. And, a HUGE paty at Cathryns, hot tub, pool, bbq, BEER. I'll e-mail you my phone number, give me a call.

"The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa

[mjosparky 4]

Here is a good way to see if you would have a chance to save your friend. Do a single file no grip 10 way exit and you leave last. If you can't dock on the formation in less then 15 sec. I doubt you will be able to catch your friend in time. If you can dock on the formation in less then 15 sec. you are a world class swooper.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Speer 0]

Roy,

A great question to ask, one that should stimulate critical thinking more than emotional response...

Ron and Tom have both offered dispassionate critiques of realistic scenario response, ones that we should all use to drive us toward improving our skill sets. Well said was that "we do what we practice".

I certainly feel no justification arguing with any of the highly experienced jumpers on this thread, but instead see their admonitions as urging us to get good at what we do! Because it is very unlikely we will pull off the "upset" in this emergency situation, we would be wise to think prevention, and develop the skills to recognize and respond to less challenging ones.

In violation of your request Roy, I'll add that addressing the AAD issue in this thread is appropriate. I understand, and believe the concept that dependence on "technology" can be a very bad thing, please don't take my promotion of AAD use as such. Using one does however make the scenario in question significantly less risky, and prevents putting your jump buddies in their own life threatening situation at your behest. Make a choice, let it be known, and be willing to accept the potential outcome. It is after all what we do by the very act of jumping.

I'm an old fart, with a wife, 3 daughters, and a skydiving son. I love them and appreciate that they put up with my decision to jump. I use an AAD at least as much for them as for myself. I would not want my son to jump without one.

I believe that I would chase my son till his CYPRES launched his (and my) reserve. That in itself would present no small danger. I suspect that it would be far wiser for me to pull higher and rely on his AAD... just not sure I would have the discipline to do so.

Russ

Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning?

[wmw999 2,439]

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I believe that I would chase my son till his CYPRES launched his (and my) reserve

I might quit chasing at 2000'. If my son jumped (which he plans to do sometime), I'd chase him as far as I could. No question.

And I hope I never have the opportunity to test any of this.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[goose491 0]

Good idea for a sensational thread. I'm glad there hasn't been much flammin'

I'm definitely one of the "No friends Below 2 grand" guys.

However, I have a few friends I'd follow into the basement. One which I actually have recurring dreams about doing just that for. In the dream we are two-way and collide. He is rendered unconscious and I spend the rest of the dive chasing him. But for twice, I've always succeeded to plow into him and come away with a handle in time to deploy myself and land hard with line twists in the reserve.

... for this brother... 1000 ft.

(And that means I'm pulling when my third warning - set at 1500'- stops beepin')

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[billvon 2,989]

>If you can't dock on the formation in less then 15 sec. I doubt you will
>be able to catch your friend in time.

Well, two issues here:

1. In the swooping scenario, he's already going 80mph downwards when you exit the plane, and you're doing 0mph when your feet leave the door. It's far easier to catch someone in freefall than out the door.

2. You don't have to dock; you only have to get a handle out.

A better way to see if you are capable of doing it is doing an AFF eval. That's the point of much of the training in AFF - getting someone's main open before a certain altitude.

[goose491 0]

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I believe that I would chase my son till his CYPRES launched his (and my) reserve. That in itself would present no small danger. I suspect that it would be far wiser for me to pull higher and rely on his AAD... just not sure I would have the discipline to do so.

Woa. I shuddered at that my friend. Noble... Noble but... Eeeeee. If the question is "How low would you go?" Please realise that "Until the CYPRES lauches us both" is a very very unwise answer.

I've just posted that I have a friend I'd follow into the basement. If he jumped with a cypres, it a whole other story. I'd still chase him but that "point of no return" would be brought a little higher knowing he's got a ticking time bomb just itchin' to deploy in my face. Maybe I'd be pulling right at the sound of the third warning rather than waiting for it to stop?

I don't know. All I know is that I'm gonna keep aware of how high I am... not just wait for the AAD to fire.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[brits17 0]

Cypres firing altitude. Then its me and my silver handle hand in hand.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[Reginald 0]

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(And that means I'm pulling when my third warning - set at 1500'- stops beepin')

Not sure what audible you have but I thought the third warning would continue to go off on most of them until you stopped free falling…either by a canopy being above your head or the ground stopping you. So, it sounds like your third will stop when you impact.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

Here is a good way to see if you would have a chance to save your friend. Do a single file no grip 10 way exit and you leave last. If you can't dock on the formation in less then 15 sec. I doubt you will be able to catch your friend in time. If you can dock on the formation in less then 15 sec. you are a world class swooper.

Hey I can do that! Got the video to prove it as well. THanks Sparky! I know I am good but you don't have to call me world class.

Seriously. I can do that and I am sure others can as well. Does that mean I am going to go past 2000 to save somebody? Ron said he would go below 2000 for only two people. I might be in that situation. My Mom and my sister! That may be about it.

You may be my best friend and I will try like hell to get ya, but when 2000 comes around I gotta save myself. Sorry!

Dom

[bob.dino 1]

If you chase to Cypres altitude, that means that you're going to be within a couple of feet of the other jumper when both your reserves come out.

Chances of a wrap/entanglement are very very high. How do you deal with that at 400ft when both of you are under reserves and the other jumper is unconscious?

[tfelber 0]

1. I would do my best to save anyone in trouble.

2. I would risk my life to complete #1, but I would not sacrifice myself to do the same.

3. Therefore in support of #2, I could not go below 1500'. That's where the last warning on my two audibles are set and that's where I have to have something over my head.


BTW, recognizing that someone is in trouble would be the hard part, hence it is highly unlikely that #1 would happen.

Second, not that I want people to start trying it, but from what I've heard and read, a friend of mine was voted Skydiver of the Year in 1996 for just such a heroic act. Here's to you Kevin!!!

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

>If you can't dock on the formation in less then 15 sec. I doubt you will
>be able to catch your friend in time.

Well, two issues here:

1. In the swooping scenario, he's already going 80mph downwards when you exit the plane, and you're doing 0mph when your feet leave the door. It's far easier to catch someone in freefall than out the door.

2. You don't have to dock; you only have to get a handle out.

A better way to see if you are capable of doing it is doing an AFF eval. That's the point of much of the training in AFF - getting someone's main open before a certain altitude.

Well, there are no issues here:

1. His friend hit the horizontal on exit on a two way. That puts them both in freefall.

2. It is far easier to dock then it is to find a small handle and pull it.

It was a "try this and see how you do" thing. Lets not make anything more out of it.

Until we are put in the situation, I doubt any of us can say what we would do, maybe what we think we would but until it happens you don't know.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[brits17 0]

Quote

If you chase to Cypres altitude, that means that you're going to be within a couple of feet of the other jumper when both your reserves come out.

Chances of a wrap/entanglement are very very high. How do you deal with that at 400ft when both of you are under reserves and the other jumper is unconscious?

If I can get a grib on his silver before 700 feet, I will hold on as either my cypres fires, or I pull myself. Consequently opening myself before the unconcious jumper.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[skyhighkiy 0]

nice, Hey, F.Y.I. this is Mantisstrike from Livejournal

BE THE BUDDHA!

[Shark 0]

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Until we are put in the situation, I doubt any of us can say what we would do, maybe what we think we would but until it happens you don't know.

Exactly

Been there, done that, won't do it again....

(An AFF jump, and yes, I accepted their monetary tip.)

AFF work-up jumps may be a good indicator, but few evaluators roll-over at pull time; real students will.

[metalslug 36]

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Until we are put in the situation, I doubt any of us can say what we would do, maybe what we think we would but until it happens you don't know.

So... if your child or Very Significant Other was clearly in distress just a few feet from you, you may actualy hesitate to help ?
Many of these thread comments are not claiming what they could successfully do, it's also about what they would attempt to do. The former requires skill and experience, the later only requires courage (or foolishness).

Quote

If you chase to Cypres altitude, that means that you're going to be within a couple of feet of the other jumper when both your reserves come out.

I wouldn't chase anyone that low if they had a Cypres.. for precisely this reason.

Quote

If I can get a grip on his silver before 700 feet, I will hold on as either my cypres fires, or I pull myself. Consequently opening myself before the unconcious jumper.

That would result in the jumper's handle being pulled at about the time your reserve opening reaches line stretch, after your Cypres fire. That would probably start their deployment at around 400ft.
It would be a very close one.. but perhaps better than not trying at all. Good on ya.

[tbrown 26]

About two years ago, an AFF Instructor named Robert Bonadies, or "Bobo" to those who knew him, was killed going for a low save on an out of control student. Only the student had a Cypres in her rig, Bobo didn't have one in his. He actually caught her and got her main opened, then went in as her Cypres fired her reserve and she landed under both canopies.

He violated the procedures going below 2 grand and the real tragedy is that he didn't need to and only killed himself. It's been debated as to whether he actually endangered his student by giving her a double canopy situation. Maybe he did.

His motivation was selfless and the Carnegie Foundation actually gave his family a medal. But it was a pointless way to die. The situation we're debating here doesn't even have to happen if everyone would just cough up the $1250 it takes for a Cypres. All this blather about "depending" on AAD's is a bunch of crap. Anybody who is conscious and awake after a Cypres fire needs a good kick in the ass and a grounding to think things over, but at least they're alive. This shit just doesn't have to happen anymore, it really is that simple.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Airman1270 0]

...The situation we're debating here doesn't even have to happen if everyone would just cough up the $1250 it takes for a Cypres. All this blather about "depending" on AAD's is a bunch of crap...

With all due respect, I believe this attitude is part of the reason skydiving has become an elite "yuppie" sport. I have successfully (?) found a balance between the DZ & family life. However, it is hard enough to "cough up" enough money to make 4 or 5 jumps a month without my wife complaining about all the time/money I spend on the sport. I could buy a Cypres, but I'd have to spend every Saturday afternoon for the next two years sitting at the kitchen table looking at it because there'd be no money to buy jumps.
Perhaps I feel at ease without an AAD because I've been jumping for nearly 20 years without one. Nothing wrong with AAD's perhaps, but the real problem is that many people who use them become afraid to jump without them.
I used to want an AAD, but have had a change of heart. On the one hand is the cost and the maintenance hassle; on the other is the fact that the manufacturer cannot guarantee its reliability after as few as 10 years. It's a basic cost/benefit situation. Also, while it might be extremely rare, I fear a misfire while diving head down or climbing out for exit. And don't get me started on the "mandatory AAD" nazis...
Please forgive me if this is stretching the parameters of this post, but you guys started it.

Cheers, Jon S.

[Ron 10]

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All this blather about "depending" on AAD's is a bunch of crap.

Your opinion only.

Mine is different. Dependency on a device to save you is bad.

Training, practice, diligence, awareness, not geting into situations that are above your skill set...is good.

Training, practice, diligence, awareness, not geting into situations that are above your skill set and adding a saftey device is better.

But replacing training, practice, diligence, awareness, not geting into situations that are above your skill set for an AAD is stupid, and it does happen.

Quote

Anybody who is conscious and awake after a Cypres fire needs a good kick in the ass and a grounding to think things over

This we agree on.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chriswelker 0]

I just hope for all of you thrill seekers and heroes going below 2K , that your reserves will not open with line twists or other problems that you HAVE TO DEAL with.

Chris Welker
D-19678
AFF-I '04
S&TA

[Ron 10]

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I just hope for all of you thrill seekers and heroes going below 2K , that your reserves will not open with line twists or other problems that you HAVE TO DEAL with.

I hope they don't slam into the guy as he or his aad deploys him...Killing one or both of them.

We had an AFF RATED "I" get killed here in FL. when a student was pulled out by the other JM....A freefall collision sucks. We had another guy in FL lose a leg due to a freefall collision.

What many of these folks are not looking at (Other than how really hard it is to pull off this kinda stuff) is that you can make the problem worse.

Plus I doubt many of these "I'd go get him till 1,000 feet have even even BEEN in freefall at 1200 feet before. Plus they are forgetting that you lose track of time when you are really trying to do something...
The ground does not care how much of a good, nice thing you were trying to do.

Add all this together, and going after someone below 2 grand is a bad idea that even most professionals would not try for a damn good reason.

I would ask any of the "I'd go get him below 2 grand" crowd to try the exercises that have been suggested. And for a little flavor....Go do a low pull (1,600-1,800ish) and see how fast the ground comes.

Once you have really seen how fast the ground comes...You will not want to do it again.

BTW....all of those that have said they would go after someone....Whats your normal pull altitude, and whats the lowest you have pulled?

Me? Well I'd only go after 2 people that I can think of....And dying trying to save them would be worth it for me. But I normally pull around 2,500...And have taken it SUB 1,000 feet 3 times(I had 300ish jumps and "knew" everything), and around 300 jumps pulling at 1500 feet...(Again, I had <1,000 jumps and "knew" everything....stupid me...I'd kick my own ass if I could).

Seriously...I'd like to hear from the "I have seen DropZone to many times crowd".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ladyskydiver 0]

Well...I've seen DropZone once. And, do I realistically think I'd make it to the person in time? Do I even think with my current swooping abilities that I'd even get close? Probably not, but I would not be able to live with myself without trying.

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Whats your normal pull altitude, and whats the lowest you have pulled?

Normal pull: 2800-3000
Lowest pull: 2000 (to-date)

I've yet to take my main below 2,000 and prefer not to ever need to.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Airman1270 0]

Once you have really seen how fast the ground comes...You will not want to do it again.

BTW....all of those that have said they would go after someone....Whats your normal pull altitude, and whats the lowest you have pulled?


Normal - 3000' ish.

Only a handful of main pulls below 2000'. (Once got open at 1000' during an impromptu speed star competition when the other guys wouldn't let go of my arms- damn lucky it didn't snivel.) A few jumps later I rode a snivel from 5500' down to 2000'; it began inflating just as I was ready to pull handles.

Once had a hard pull on the reserve - got open at 400'.

,
Jon