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Tandem harness

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Sorry, I'm bored at work today. Has anyone heard of/experienced/seen a tandem harness malfunction? Something like partially or fully breaking away from the TM. This may be a dumb question but I am taking some people skydiving with me next weekend (finally got some money saved up to do a few more levels) and one of the people going asked me that. I obviously couldn't give them an answer so I thought I'd try here. Thanks guys (and gals).

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Sorry, I'm bored at work today. Has anyone heard of/experienced/seen a tandem harness malfunction? Something like partially or fully breaking away from the TM. This may be a dumb question but I am taking some people skydiving with me next weekend (finally got some money saved up to do a few more levels) and one of the people going asked me that. I obviously couldn't give them an answer so I thought I'd try here. Thanks guys (and gals).



There is a "scary tandem" video presentation which I believe was done by RWS, in which the student is in the door when the video guy frantically points out to the instructor that the passengers top harness snaps have not been connected. The moron quickly hooks the snaps and exits. I heard he had his rating jerked over the incident.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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top harness snaps have not been connected



Wow! You would think the TM would notice that getting to the door. Maybe it depends on what kind of aircraft they were jumping from.

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I heard he had his rating jerked over the incident.



Probably a good move.

Do you know if he was a pretty new TM or if it's a result of complacency? Or was he somehow distracted? Just curious.....

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top harness snaps have not been connected



Wow! You would think the TM would notice that getting to the door. Maybe it depends on what kind of aircraft they were jumping from.

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I heard he had his rating jerked over the incident.



Probably a good move.

Do you know if he was a pretty new TM or if it's a result of complacency? Or was he somehow distracted? Just curious.....



At our DZ the TI does a 10-point verbal check of all handles and attachment points when the passenger is connected. Obviously the guy didn't do that. I don't have any info on who/where the incident happened.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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Sorry, I'm bored at work today. Has anyone heard of/experienced/seen a tandem harness malfunction? Something like partially or fully breaking away from the TM. This may be a dumb question but I am taking some people skydiving with me next weekend (finally got some money saved up to do a few more levels) and one of the people going asked me that. I obviously couldn't give them an answer so I thought I'd try here. Thanks guys (and gals).



Nope. Millions of tandem jumps have been made and no harness has failed to the point of releasing a student. There have been some distortions of hardware that have not caused any significant problems, but no complete harness failures.

The harness is rated to hold far more than the weight of the two jumpers, and each of the four attachment points is rated to carry the full load alone. So, even if an instructor only hooked up a single shoulder connection, the pair should remain together. In fact, instructors are trained that if an aircraft emergency makes it necessary to exit mid-climb, they are to slap on one shoulder attachment and jump. The tandem harness and rig are very robust.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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There was an incident of a TI not configuring the "new" Sigma harness correctly and almost loosing his student. Basically, the TI adjusted it wrong and it was 100% his fault, so not really a harness failure but the fact that people who can't follow manufacture's instructions shouldn't be TIs.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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There is a "scary tandem" video presentation which I believe was done by RWS, in which the student is in the door when the video guy frantically points out to the instructor that the passengers top harness snaps have not been connected. The moron quickly hooks the snaps and exits. I heard he had his rating jerked over the incident.


MANY tandem instructors have done that I expect, even me. Plus I heard of many similar stories over the years of tandems exiting with the top snaps undone. It was the result of the first tandem fatality but I do not think any tandem was ever killed since then brcause of someone not doing up the top snaps.

My story was typical, long day, many tandems, tired, changed the way I do things and left that part out. remembered when I got to the door

TK

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Wasn't there a video some years back showing a tandem pair
spinning out of control in FF with the two bodies 90*(+/-)

out of alignment because the TI (TM then)
failed to hook up the lowers...

Seems to me it was shown during a Strong refresher I attended.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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There is a "scary tandem" video presentation which I believe was done by RWS, in which the student is in the door when the video guy frantically points out to the instructor that the passengers top harness snaps have not been connected. The moron quickly hooks the snaps and exits. I heard he had his rating jerked over the incident.




MANY tandem instructors have done that I expect, even me. Plus I heard of many similar stories over the years of tandems exiting with the top snaps undone.




That is just amazing... I'm no TI.. but are you f'ing kidding me... how the hell do you do that? Sure you have the parachute on your back.. so you'll be fine, but these passengers are trusting you with there life. I think that those many TI's that have done that should all have their ratings pulled, because they are obviously not as serious about safety as they should be. At first I thought you were joking...

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

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bottom connectors are still done up and tight. I watched a video of a TI hooking up the top ones in freefall.

Hey - we are human, and we fuck up - like i said, how many fatalities have you heard of about that? Now how many times has it happened? More than you think - how many admit it? Just the ones who have video usually.

I sent mine to Bill Morrisey for training purposes.

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Wasn't there a video some years back showing a tandem pair
spinning out of control in FF with the two bodies 90*(+/-)

out of alignment because the TI (TM then)
failed to hook up the lowers...

Seems to me it was shown during a Strong refresher I attended.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The side spin training video - published by Strong Enterprises - shows a tandem pair in a side spin with the laterals fully extended. Those laterals looked tight on exit, and factory reps theorize that tons of tension caused them to slip during the side spin.

I also know (second hand) of an incident in Perris Valley in the mid 1990s. A new TI was jumping an unfamiliar airplane (King Air) that climbed faster than he was used to. He got distracted by the student fumbling with goggles and got to the doorway with the shoulder hooks unconnected. Lateral straps held them together through opening shock and they landed okay.

The first tandem fatality occurred in South Africa in the late 1980s. After a normal opening, the TI released the laterals. Then a solo skydiver docked (less than gracefully) on the tandem main canopy. When they cutaway from the wrap, the tandem student's feet swung forward and up. This rotation about the shoulder hooks broke the TI's neck. He never pulled the reserve ripcord. Remember that this accident occurred before RSLs or Cypres were fashionable.
Tandem manufacturers immediately banned Canopy Formations involving tandems.

In conclusion, Packerboy, be careful who you criticize until you have hauled your twelfth tandem student of the day, on the "sunset" load after a long day of packing in the hot sun and droning to altitude in slow Cessnas. We are all at risk of making human errors.

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I guess.. my bad. I have screwed up as well.. Last summer I packed the same steering line malfunction for a jumper twice within weeks.

I was a little quick on the post, mainly just because it kind of startled me a bit to read what I was reading. Kudos to you guys for admitting those mistakes.

The most important part is that hopefully some new TI's are reading these posts, and it emphasizes to them the importance of doing gear checks routinely, especially since someone elses life is on the line.

I realize that I am not all that experienced, and that you guys know a lot more about how it all really goes down. Sometimes I just get lost in what I am reading here and forget that fact. I was a little hasty on the critisizing post. Hey, we all make mistakes right? ;)

I had almost forgot about this thread after I originally posted and I would have lost out on an important lesson.. Thanks for bringing it to my attention Fuzzy ;) See you next weekend dude. Just for fun, partyboy Mark for me will ya.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

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The first tandem fatality occurred in South Africa in the late 1980s. After a normal opening, the TI released the laterals. Then a solo skydiver docked (less than gracefully) on the tandem main canopy. When they cutaway from the wrap, the tandem student's feet swung forward and up. This rotation about the shoulder hooks broke the TI's neck. He never pulled the reserve ripcord. Remember that this accident occurred before RSLs or Cypres were fashionable.
Tandem manufacturers immediately banned Canopy Formations involving tandems.



Rob,

I believe the first tandem fatality was at CPI in 1985 or 6. The tandem instructor forgot to attach the upper snaps...the lower laterals were done up...and he impacted with no pull after spending the entire skydive trying to fasten the top snaps.

The CRW wrap and fatality happened later....after I took the attached picture of my old buddy Mr. Beaker and his wife, Gail, after they docked on me. You might recall this picture was used on the cover of CanPara magazine and created quite an uproar...not because of the tandem crw but because Beakie and Gail weren't wearing helmets. hehehe

Ahhhh...the good old days!
--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

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Hey Tom,
I think your missing a few decimal points in your Jump#'s



Weird. It had been listed in the 4,000's, but everything after the 4 was dropped. I wonder when that happened? Thanks for the point out, and hopefully it will stay fixed.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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I believe the first tandem fatality was at CPI in 1985 or 6. The tandem instructor forgot to attach the upper snaps...the lower laterals were done up...and he impacted with no pull after spending the entire skydive trying to fasten the top snaps.

The CRW wrap and fatality happened later....after I took the attached picture of my old buddy Mr. Beaker and his wife, Gail, after they docked on me. You might recall this picture was used on the cover of CanPara magazine and created quite an uproar...not because of the tandem crw but because Beakie and Gail weren't wearing helmets. hehehe

Ahhhh...the good old days!
__________________________________________________
Not sure if this is the one you're talking about but you may remember the fatality where the tandem master HAD done up the snaps, but they were the old kind (similar to the eclipse harness) where you would put a locking pin thru the snap to hold it closed, even though it was spring-closed like the newer snaps on the sigmas. The TI STILL spent the whole dive trying to PUT THE PIN through the closed snap, and went in because there was no aad (not required at the time)...

Incidently Murray, do you have any pictures of the downplane you did at 1000' on that CRW dive with Beaker???

Just funnin'

Rob
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Rob,

That is the one I am thinking about. You're right and thank you for refreshing my memory. He was just fiddling with the locking pins on the top attachments, not trying to do the snaps up.

What a shame.
--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

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Rob,

That is the one I am thinking about. You're right and thank you for refreshing my memory. He was just fiddling with the locking pins on the top attachments, not trying to do the snaps up.

What a shame.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I always thought the locking pins (on Vector Tandems) were silly.
This is a case of "more safety" degrading the system because it requires the user to perform more steps. The more steps, the greater the chances of forgetting a step.
I understand the engineering logic behind the locking pins, just thought they would have been wiser to follow Strong's lead in installing hooks that were strong enough to carry the entire load.

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***I always thought the locking pins (on Vector Tandems) were silly.
This is a case of "more safety" degrading the system because it requires the user to perform more steps. The more steps, the greater the chances of forgetting a step.
I understand the engineering logic behind the locking pins, just thought they would have been wiser to follow Strong's lead in installing hooks that were strong enough to carry the entire load.

I liked the safety pins on the old harness. The new Sigma harnesses don't have them. Now, I'm not a rigger, but I thought the old style snaps were just as strong as the new style. I thought the whole idea was just to totally insure that neither side ever came undone. That fatality was a real bitch. When you leave the realm of safety (every thing hooked up right) you enter the realm of just surviving. That pair should have never gone in.

I remember having both types on my front mount reserve years ago. Don't tell me one style was weaker.

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***I always thought the locking pins (on Vector Tandems) were silly.
This is a case of "more safety" degrading the system because it requires the user to perform more steps. The more steps, the greater the chances of forgetting a step.
I understand the engineering logic behind the locking pins, just thought they would have been wiser to follow Strong's lead in installing hooks that were strong enough to carry the entire load.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I liked the safety pins on the old harness. The new Sigma harnesses don't have them. Now, I'm not a rigger, but I thought the old style snaps were just as strong as the new style. I thought the whole idea was just to totally insure that neither side ever came undone. That fatality was a real bitch. When you leave the realm of safety (every thing hooked up right) you enter the realm of just surviving. That pair should have never gone in.

I remember having both types on my front mount reserve years ago. Don't tell me one style was weaker.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

B-12 Snaps are only half as strong (2500 pounds) as the butterfly snaps (5000 pounds) used on Strong tandems.
The fail-safe logic is the same as for chest-mounted reserves. One snap should be enough to retain the load. Since they concluded that a single B-12 snap was not strong enough to survive opening shock, they installed locking pins on Vector Tandems, to prevent losing students.

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