obelixtim 150 #1 February 9, 2004 Right, listen carefully, I shall say this only once... IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT....SAY NOTHING.......OK!!!!!......Some of you are completely misinformed..... Firstly, there is nothing wrong with a FXC 12000...it is most reliable, and was just doing its job because of a low dump....it is accurate to about 200 feet......Cypres have made a real propaganda job on FXC......one of the best AAD's ever invented, with a hell of a good track record that Cypres can only dream about.... Secondly, with a biplane configuration main/reserve, the best and safest way to fly it, is by picking up BOTH sets of toggles and flying it as a normal biplane...as CRW workers do in a biplane quite easily.... if you mess with only one set of toggles there is a REAL risk of a downplane = DOA..... Thirdly, with side by side configuration, disconnect RSL and chop the main..... Goddam, some people write absolute rubbish....would be amusing if it wasn't so bloody dangerous......twitchy FXC's, canopies running over each other, playing with one set of toggles gently, playing with risers.....TOTAL, UTTER, NONSENSE!!!... So there!!!. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #2 February 9, 2004 >Firstly, there is nothing wrong with a FXC 12000...it is most reliable, > and was just doing its job because of a low dump....it is accurate to > about 200 feet...... When we were using the 12000 we regularly saw misfires as high as 800 feet above set altitude. They went away completely when we went to cypreses. >Secondly, with a biplane configuration main/reserve, the best and >safest way to fly it, is by picking up BOTH sets of toggles and flying it > as a normal biplane...as CRW workers do in a biplane quite > easily.... if you mess with only one set of toggles there is a REAL > risk of a downplane = DOA..... Agree. Solution - leave both sets of toggles stowed. Mess with a stable configuration as little as possible. If your messing with it does cause a downplane, cut away the main. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #3 February 10, 2004 Concur with both statements. I've personally had two FXC misfires. One well after a normal deployment of the main, when I switched the FXC to the "Red" position as I was instructed by the local S&TA. - Cajones The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #4 February 10, 2004 Quote*** >Secondly, with a biplane configuration main/reserve, the best and >safest way to fly it, is by picking up BOTH sets of toggles and flying it > as a normal biplane...as CRW workers do in a biplane quite > easily.... if you mess with only one set of toggles there is a REAL > risk of a downplane = DOA..... Agree. Solution - leave both sets of toggles stowed. Mess with a stable configuration as little as possible. If your messing with it does cause a downplane, cut away the main. ...A little clarification here please. The SIM say's in section 5-1-Skydiving Emergencies, Two Canopies Out 3. Stable Biplane a. Unstow the brakes on the front canopy and recover gently to full flight. b. Leave brakes stowed on the rear canopy. Now you kids have way more time under those canopies then I do. I'm not contridicting you, but if your going to contridict the SIM please give a reason.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
s9801758 0 #5 February 10, 2004 QuoteIF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT....SAY NOTHING.......OK!!!!!...... Most of us were fairly thoughtfull in our statements, expressing doubt, and recommending confirmation with instructors. I assume anybody reading this forum to treat all information with a healthy dose of suspision. Turning on capslock is not going to make me believe you more. Quote Firstly, there is nothing wrong with a FXC 12000...it is most reliable, and was just doing its job because of a low dump....it is accurate to about 200 feet...... I very much agree with this. I f*cked up and dumped too low. Quote Cypres have made a real propaganda job on FXC......one of the best AAD's ever invented, with a hell of a good track record that Cypres can only dream about.... Are there statistics comparing the trackrecords of the two types of AADs? I find it hard to believe that propaganda gets you anywhere with a product whose sole purpose is to save lives. If you mean that the FXC has been around for longer, I guess you're right, but there must be a reason most people use a cypress these days. Quote Secondly, with a biplane configuration main/reserve, the best and safest way to fly it, is by picking up BOTH sets of toggles and flying it as a normal biplane... As demonstrated by the above posts, and even the section in the SIM, there seems to be heavy debate on what the best strategy is. Quote Goddam, some people write absolute rubbish....would be amusing if it wasn't so bloody dangerous...... twitchy FXC's, canopies running over each other, playing with one set of toggles gently, playing with risers.....TOTAL, UTTER, NONSENSE!!!... Whereas I never got a confirmation from FXC on their twichyness, that post at my dropzone was not put up there for nothing. I assume that when I walk around on a well known commercial dropzone, I can safely assume there is some truth to the information therein. Obviously, I'm always open for discussion on this. As for the canopies running over eachother, I don't think I ever said something like that. What I did see, and say, was that the front-corner of my reserve started crawling underneath my main. The 'gentle and light' part makes sense to me. It sure is better than just pulling on it as hard as you can. Two well known instructors have taught me to try only one set of toggles. That didn't work, so I tried the risers. The best strategy? Maybe not, but I'm still alive so I must have done something right. Meanwhile, I would like it somebody could come with a definite answer on what a good strategy is, and what the real story on the FXC is. Preferably with arguments, and without the capslock. Cheers, Jaap Suter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 February 10, 2004 Quote IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT....SAY NOTHING.......OK!!!!!......Some of you are completely misinformed..... Quote it is accurate to about 200 feet Test 1. 65 fps - Must Fire Test chamber rate of descent: 3900 fpm. Altitude control setting: 1000 ft. The unit MUST fire at 1000 ft. +/- 300 ft. Test 2. 40 fps - No Fire Test chamber rate of descent: 2400 fpm. Altitude control setting: 1000 ft. The unit MUST NOT fire at any time. Test 3. Freefall Verification Test (175 fps) Test chamber rate of descent: 175 fps. Altitude control setting: 1000 ft. The unit should fire at 1000 ft. +/- 300 ft. Who is mis-informed? Quote Firstly, there is nothing wrong with a FXC 12000...it is most reliable, and was just doing its job because of a low dump....it is accurate to about 200 feet......Cypres have made a real propaganda job on FXC......one of the best AAD's ever invented, with a hell of a good track record that Cypres can only dream about.... The Cypres has a much better track record than the FXC 12000. Quote if you mess with only one set of toggles there is a REAL risk of a downplane = DOA..... I have tested this and the canopies did not stay in a down plane because you have to get one canopy to go completely behind you with 180-degree line twists. Leaving the brakes stowed and using the rear risers. on the lead canopy and allowing the trailing canopy to follow it will work. The more you do to change a stable configuration the more likely you are to make it unstable. Quote Thirdly, with side by side configuration, disconnect RSL and chop the main..... I have intentionally flown and landed a few side-by-sides……….. Quote playing with one set of toggles gently, playing with risers.....TOTAL, UTTER, NONSENSE!!!... I must be dead then and just didn’t know it. How many 2-out test jumps have you done? Quote Goddam, some people write absolute rubbish Yes, they do……….. “So there!!!.“, yourself. Maybe you should listen to your own advice. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #7 February 10, 2004 I said ABOUT 200ft....I just don't have the manual with me to quote the exact figures... I never said that the Cypres had a worse record...its a good AAD...but the FXC is also a good AAD...I just wanted people to recognise that fact...but the way people go on its like the FXC is dangerous....this is not true...and its saved a hell of a lot more people than the Cypress, mainly because its been around a lot longer....and being mechanical, has less things that can go wrong...more rigger friendly as well....having said that I've seen problems with the FXC..(after a factory service by the way)as well as problems with Cypres..I think they have to both be regarded as what they are...a back up device.... With 2 canopies...the best advice is in a biplane, fly with 2 sets of toggles, or none...I agree, if its stable, do not make it unstable... With a side by side...be extremely careful...especially near the ground.....turbulence from thermals, wake turbs, or wind generated can turn it nasty real fast.....would not recommend anything drastic...think carefully and be very careful...especially if you are thinking of turning the canopy..... Have done quite a few test jumps myself...not with solo 2 canopies out though....but I've got a lot of CRW experience...2 ways and bigger...competition rotations and Sequential..... Of course there are exceptions to every scenario...one day you'll get away with something, the next day you might do exactly the same and die.....Just be careful about some of the advice you are reading, thats all I was TRYING to say....and I've got caps lock so I'll use them if I think its important..... A lot of instructors will disagree, thats OK.... my best advice is go talk to and old CRW dog.....many instructors have never done a CRW jump.... So instead of getting stuck into me, accept that maybe I know a few things that are valid....and SOME people DO write rubbish!!. So there!!!.....:-)My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 February 10, 2004 QuoteI said ABOUT 200ft....I just don't have the manual with me to quote the exact figures... If you are going to start calling others people's posts "rubbish", then you should make sure your posts are very accurate. The whole glass houses saying comes to mind. QuoteI never said that the Cypres had a worse record...its a good AAD...but the FXC is also a good AAD...I just wanted people to recognise that fact...but the way people go on its like the FXC is dangerous....this is not true It has a tendancy to mis-fire and does make it dangerious. Quoteand its saved a hell of a lot more people than the Cypress, mainly because its been around a lot longer Source? Quoteand being mechanical, has less things that can go wrong The cypres, being a solid state device has less things that can go wrong, no moving parts. Quotemore rigger friendly as well Having to put it through a test chamber at every re-pack is more rigger friendly? The Cypres is, by far, more rigger friendly. Quotehaving said that I've seen problems with the FXC..(after a factory service by the way)as well as problems with Cypres..I think they have to both be regarded as what they are...a back up device.... The Cypres is easier for the owner to use, is more reliable, more accurate, and more rigger frinedly than the FXC. I agree that they are both back-up devices. QuoteWith 2 canopies...the best advice is in a biplane, fly with 2 sets of toggles, or none I disagree. Why release the brakes? QuoteI agree, if its stable, do not make it unstable... Then why do you say to release the brakes on a stable bi-plane? QuoteWith a side by side...be extremely careful...especially near the ground.....turbulence from thermals, wake turbs, or wind generated can turn it nasty real fast.....would not recommend anything drastic...think carefully and be very careful...especially if you are thinking of turning the canopy..... It is very difficult to take a side-by-side into a down plane and keep it there, I know I've tried. And you shouldn't be making any turns at low altitude under any two-out situation. QuoteHave done quite a few test jumps myself...not with solo 2 canopies out though....but I've got a lot of CRW experience...2 ways and bigger...competition rotations and Sequential..... Solo CReW, i.e. 2-out os much different from CReW. QuoteOf course there are exceptions to every scenario...one day you'll get away with something, the next day you might do exactly the same and die.....Just be careful about some of the advice you are reading, thats all I was TRYING to say....and I've got caps lock so I'll use them if I think its important..... Of course, but we are discussing the general rules. My advice doesn not apply to a VX-60 main and PD-106R reserve in a side-by-side. QuoteA lot of instructors will disagree, thats OK.... my best advice is go talk to and old CRW dog.....many instructors have never done a CRW jump.... True, but how many CReW guys have had a 2-out? CReW is very different. QuoteSo instead of getting stuck into me, accept that maybe I know a few things that are valid....and SOME people DO write rubbish!!. That is true, but wording your post to attack every poster above you is simply not bice. It makes you sound arrogant, as though only you have the right advice and everyone else is a moron. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #9 February 13, 2004 The FXC1200 is better for students because 1)It doesn't cost a fortune when the student forgets to pull. It only takes a minute to reset the unit. No replacement cutter to buy. 2) No 4 year 8 year check or batteries 3) Can be used on either Main or Reserve (asuming the main is using ripcord) 4) has adjustable range Now as far as experienced jumpers go, I definatly think the Cypres is better because..... 1)Fewer reported misfires 2)Is more suited to jumpers who pull lower since it fires at 750ft. 3)No moving parts (little wear and tear/calibration) 4)Uses way less packing volume. Experienced jumpers don't want a huge 45 pound rig! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #10 February 14, 2004 Quote2) No 4 year 8 year check or batteries FXC 12000 requires 2-year checks @ $130 plus shipping, and chambering at each repack ($37 is advertised price at Action Air). The life-cycle costs are roughly the same as Cypres. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 February 14, 2004 Now as far as experienced jumpers go, I definately think the Cypres is better because..... 1)Fewer reported misfires >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hee! Hee! The definition of "AAD misfire" has changed over the years. Back when FXCs were - almost - the only AADs on the market, any AAD fire below 3,000 feet was labelled a "mis-fire." Wait a minute, what were junior jumpers doing in freefall below 3,000 feet? Nowadays, any time a Cypres fires at 1,000 feet - instead of the official 750 feet - it is labelled a "mis-fire." Wait a minute, what are skydivers doing freefalling through 1,000 feet? Also remember that the human eye is notoriously inaccurate at judging altitude. Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
