Vallerina 2 #1 July 28, 2004 If a dropzone has a plane crash with a jumpplane even if skydivers are not involved, do skydivers still have the right to know about it?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 July 28, 2004 I don't think anyone has a "right" to any information. It would be nice if information was shared in a non threatning, no repercusions, non fingerpointing type format so learning can happen.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #3 July 28, 2004 Absolutely. We should always be concerned as why things happen in our sport. Finding out it could be human or mechanical errors is always appreciated and eye openers."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #4 July 28, 2004 QuoteIf a dropzone has a plane crash with a jumpplane even if skydivers are not involved, do skydivers still have the right to know about it? I don't know about skydivers but the FAA should be told, IMO. I have heard RUMORS of a planes crashing and nothing reported. I'm not a pilot so I don't know what the FAA requires. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #5 July 28, 2004 QuoteI don't think anyone has a "right" to any information. So, in regards to the safety and maintenance of aircraft, where do our rights as skydivers begin and end?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 July 28, 2004 Here is a link to a thread about Mike Mullins landing gear up last year http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=364367#364367, but no NTSB report was ever filed on it. Same with this Gear up at Pell City: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=706231#706231 It was in Canada but: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=204407;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread I did'nt see anyone running to announce them to the world...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #7 July 28, 2004 QuoteI did'nt see anyone running to announce them to the world... Posting about it on dz.com is somewhat announcing it to the world of skydivers.... Is it wrong of dropzones to try to hide incidents/crashes? Quotebut no NTSB report was ever filed on it. I'm sure diverdriver will be here soon to answer, but are they legally required to file reports?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #8 July 28, 2004 wouldn't some kind of FAA report have to be filed in the case of a plane crash? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #9 July 28, 2004 QuoteSo, in regards to the safety and maintenance of aircraft, where do our rights as skydivers begin and end? Our rights begin and end about where we can make them do so. When a jumper is at a DZ, they can look at stuff, talk to people, and make decisions based on that information. But info about somewhere else - like overall skydiving injury rates or the history of a particular DZ a jumper may visit some time - the single jumper can't get. To me this implies a brotherhood concept. The sport is risky for all of us. How risky is it? We'll only know if there is decent reporting. Unfortunately that means reporting what happens at the DZ we're at. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #10 July 28, 2004 QuoteI did'nt see anyone running to announce them to the world... That's why when my DZ had an off field landing with a newly leased 182, it was reported to the FAA as well as published publically for the skydiving world (i.e. here on DZ.com). With the blessing and desire of the DZO, I wrote up the initial report for the skydiving world and posted it the same day it happened. Why? Well, for one, there is nothing to hide, for two, skydivers will hear about it eventually, I would much rather report the incident fully and factually "straight from the horses mouth" then let the rumors get out of control. That all seems the proper thing to do, if for no other reason then just purely being respectful of other jumpers. We "found" an issue with a certain year model of 182 that will result in a drastic loss of engine power, so we let everyone know. If their DZ has a similar year/model A/C, then they can ask questions and reaffirm that a problem will be adverted. We were lucky to have a pilot with a skill level that we did, loosing the engine at 250-ish ft on take off with 4 jumpers in a 182 is a big deal. He put us down in an adjacent field with no injuries. Not even a bruise. Infact the worst injury was the shorts he ripped climbing over a barbed wire fence walking away from the landing site.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #11 July 28, 2004 Actually - isn't that public record because the NTSB gets involbed?? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 July 28, 2004 QuoteSo, in regards to the safety and maintenance of aircraft, where do our rights as skydivers begin and end? Somewhere about here: "You pays your money, you takes your chances." Quit with the "entitlement" and "rights" thing. Ain't no rights other than to take your money elsewhere if you don't like the situation.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #13 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuit with the "entitlement" and "rights" thing. Ain't no rights other than to take your money elsewhere if you don't like the situation. Uhhh...I'm really not sure where the attitude is coming from. I'm just asking questions.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #14 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuit with the "entitlement" and "rights" thing. Ain't no rights other than to take your money elsewhere if you don't like the situation. Uhhh...I'm really not sure where the attitude is coming from. I'm just asking questions. I feel pretty much the same way as JP. The only right you or I have is to ask the operator, and if we don't like the answer (or lack thereof), we can leave. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #15 July 28, 2004 QuoteIs it wrong of dropzones to try to hide incidents/crashes? Have you an example of this happening? If you think something is being hidden have you contacted that DZO or is there another reason you think it might be being hidden?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #16 July 28, 2004 Never said you had an attitude, but you did ask about "rights".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #17 July 28, 2004 Quote Have you an example of this happening? If you think something is being hidden have you contacted that DZO or is there another reason you think it might be being hidden? It's just a question. But, most of us know jumpers that tried to hide incidents and whatnot especially if their insurance didn't cover skydiving injuries. To think that there wouldn't be a single dropzone out there that would try to hide an incident is silly.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #18 July 28, 2004 There is a difference between keeping hush hush or trying to hide it, and just plain not announcing it for whatever reasons (i.e. lazy or not giving a damn to voice it out). As far as anybody claiming to have rights to records or knowledge of safety and maintenance of aircraft, there are none and either you trust your dz or you don't. It is a valid concern to know about how safe the dropzone is and that applies to everything that goes on there, but I don't think you hold a right to know over them, anymore than you do over your typical airline. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #19 July 28, 2004 QuoteNever said you had an attitude, but you did ask about "rights". And since certain things have to be reported, then the public has the right to know about them. I'm just not sure what those rights are. Is there a dollar amount that has to be reported? Are crashes that only involve injuries reported? What's reported? What isn't?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #20 July 28, 2004 QuoteThere is a difference between keeping hush hush or trying to hide it, and just plain not announcing it for whatever reasons (i.e. lazy or not giving a damn to voice it out). Exactly! One of the jumpers at my DZ broke her femer. I was'nt there to see it and the lessons to be learned have been said on here about 50 times already. Why post something second hand thats sure to be a flamefest when the lessons to be learned have already been posted?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #21 July 28, 2004 QuoteWhy post something second hand thats sure to be a flamefest Ummm....how often is it a flamefest????? That's a bit of an exaggeration.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #22 July 28, 2004 QuoteThere is a difference between keeping hush hush or trying to hide it, and just plain not announcing it for whatever reasons (i.e. lazy or not giving a damn to voice it out). I'll agree with that. I tend not to announce to my bosses my new high score in Fowl Words, afterall. However, if there was something that affected them (a virus on my computer that deleted the rate level indication), then that is something I would announce. Should some things be announced?There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flypunk 0 #23 July 28, 2004 so you should announce that you are looking for another job? or that you are going to party hard on thurs and therefore probably going to be feeling like crap and not to mention not 100% there the next day, or that you use DZ.com regularly while you are supposed to be working? They trust you can do you job efficiently without micromanaging you, and that you will inform them of things they definitively need to know. I trust my pilot/dz will let me know when I need to get off the plane or when the plane wont fly. The perception of what affects them can be viewed from different angles depending on which side you are on. ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #24 July 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhy post something second hand thats sure to be a flamefest Ummm....how often is it a flamefest????? That's a bit of an exaggeration. ever read in the incident forum? even when people come forward and try to tell the incident they get flamed all of the time. and people just won't let things go. no, it's not an exaggeration. ~chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #25 July 28, 2004 Quoteever read in the incident forum? Yes, frequently. I posted about a death of a jumper at my home dz. I would have to say there wasn't a flamefest. There were questions, but there will always be questions. Hopefully, someone learned from it. I wouldn't call questioning things a flamefest. Plus, who cares if it's a flamefest??? I don't understand why the big scary posters of dropzone.com are a good enough reason for others not to have information.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
