billvon 2,989 #51 July 19, 2004 >There are other ways?... after the main's been packed? Yes. Check the pilot chute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meathorse 0 #52 July 19, 2004 Er, ok, so nothing practical once you've boarded the plane then Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #53 July 19, 2004 QuoteJust wondering if something more could have been done after the pin check in the plane revealed the possible problem. Something that would have salvaged his jump anyways. I would make sure the door was closed, then ask one of my teammates to cock my pilot chute (I prefer not to get out of a rig once I'm in the plane), roll it up and restow the bridal + pilot chute. All in all a 2 min fix (if that). Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumperconway 0 #54 July 19, 2004 Thats what I was thinking. I pack quite a bit and I'd say on a good number of the rigs, the PC can be cocked and not show it on the window, due either to a 1/4 inch uncocking during bagging or just not having the color on the right area. I can only SO disagree with that notion! 1. If there WAS color in the window when it was cocked initially and is no longer there when you bag it, then you recock it to be sure that it can be verified! 2. If you cock the P/C and there is no color in the window and you know that it is sufficiently cocked(if not, show a rigger),then you get a permanent marker and put some color on it or don't pack the P/C and let the owner make the call. The window is there for a reason! As for paying the packer, if the packer checks and KNOWS that there WAS color in the window when initially packed and upon inspection finds that the line had moved slightly out of the window AFTER he closed it with the color visible then he gets paid! Had the jumper checked the window before boarding and seen color and then it wasn't visible before he exited, he knows that it WAS completely cocked when boarding, he should understand the risk/circumstance and make his own choice to exit or not. PHREE, I agree with your thoughts on your own P/C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sabr190 0 #55 July 19, 2004 QuoteQuotebut I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. I would say that is a "high school" way to handle the situation. Pulling someones reserve is not a smart thing to do. Do you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem? I would have to agree with you there, I could assure you of an escalation in hostility if you pulled my reserve handle. But then again, I would have given my gear a check before putting it on. I have also paid for a mal, I wasn't pissed and still tried to pay him, he would not accept payment and arranged for a rig for me to jump while he had my reserve re-packed. True professional "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,989 #56 July 20, 2004 >Just wondering if something more could have been done after the pin >check in the plane revealed the possible problem. A pin check is of limited utility if you don't even understand the gear well enough to know if the kill line mark is really visible (only about half are, in my experience.) There's only so much you can check in the plane; I can't even get a reserve pin check on my rig. But I like it that way, because there's less for people to mess with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #57 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday) Laurie, I want some of what ever time altering drug you have. This happened on Saturday night. Did you sleep a whole day away? Dom, Perhaps you're right, Dom. Sorry. Weekend days might seem to flow together. Whatever day it was, this happened over in the north packing area....ya know, where the freefliers usually pack. Lori Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites burbleflyer 0 #58 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuote3) While every jumper is responsible for checking his own gear, the packer is responsible for making sure the work is done properly. The FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. The FAA defines “direct supervision” to include taking responsibility for that packing. By this federal standard, the packer (or his supervisor) is responsible for the pack job. (See 14 CFR, part 105.43(a) and 105.3 listed below) Ideally, both the packer and the customer will check the bridle to ensure the pilot chute has been set. In this case it appears neither person checked the work. The packer or rigger is required to understand and follow all manufacturers procedures, and that includes the directions for packing a collapsible pilot chute, if one is installed. The workmanship and final inspection are the responsibility of the packer, and since he failed to do what is expected by the manufacturer and the regulations, he should not charge for the work. The jumper should have checked the workmanship before boarding the airplane, but did not, so the jumper should be responsible for the cost of the unused jump ticket. (See 14 CFR part 65.129(e)) 4) Mistakes sometimes happen in any business, and in any relationship. It’s possible the bridle marking may have worn off, or it may have been just inside the window and not visible. It is also possible that the pilot chute was not set at all. Once the problem was detected and the jumper was back on the ground, the best solution would have been for the packer to realize he had not delivered the rig in jumpable condition, and he should have immediately offered a refund on the pack job. He should have then pulled the line out of the bridle a short distance to see if it was marked and set, and should have helped the jumper to understand how to do that simple inspection on his own. If the bridle was not set at all, the packer should apologize for making the mistake and repack the rig from the start to detect any other errors that might have been made, and to reassure his customer. 5) Packers need to think of themselves as both mechanics who deal with equipment, and business people who deal with customers. Quote Federal Aviation Regulations 105.43 (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. 105.3 Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may… (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute… To simplify, a main packed by anybody other than the jumper has to meet all the requirements of a reserve, except the logging and seal. If the PC wasn't cocked at all, refund the pack job and at least half the ticket. (Other half on jumper for not checking on the ground) But, I'd refund all the ticket and appologize profusely. If your main doesn't work your started on the cascade to a fatality. PC in tow is one of the scariest, I've been there. If the kill line had slipped but the PC was still functional, the "offer" not to pay the packer is reasonable. "You pay your money and take your chance" with a main pack job. Hmmm, you should be paying for rigger quality and responsibility. They should be held to the same responsibility as a reserve. They're covered under the same regs. Now, is this reasonable. Probably not, and thats why I don't pack mains. (I take that back. I will pack a main, for my regular $40 fee) I'm held to the same standard, means the same cost. Hmmm do I need Nomex? +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigbearfng 18 #59 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuotethe packer and the jumper should buy the ticket...Neither should resort to this kind of behavior...its just stupid... From the way it went down. The jumper should have been kicked off the dropzone. When this guy got on the ground he went over and started having words with the packer. Then he started shoving and pushing. Their comes a point when it is self defense. This jumper was way out of line. The kicker is. The damn PC was cocked! IT was shown to him (the jumpe) that it was cocked. The color on the kill line had flipped under. It was fine. This jumper is new and doesn't pack for him self ever. Probably doesn't. Really know how to do it. Another reason that new jumpers should pack for themselves. He would have learned already that half the damn kill lines you seee don't have any color on them andymore. People either packed it themselves and know that they cocked it or they check it on the ground. I am not telling anyone to do this, but I have even jumped knowing that my PC wasn't cocked. It opend just fine. Good strong throw on the pull and right to the handles just in case. Please tell me this jumper is now banished from the dz!!?? According to your description of the way it went down-personally I would have had him in handcuffs and off to jail!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Evelyn 0 #60 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday) Laurie, I want some of what ever time altering drug you have. This happened on Saturday night. Did you sleep a whole day away? Dom, Perhaps you're right, Dom. Sorry. Weekend days might seem to flow together. Whatever day it was, this happened over in the north packing area....ya know, where the freefliers usually pack. Lori I think Lori might be right because I saw the altercation and I left early on Saturday , like 3:30, but I was there later on Sunday. I think it was Sunday. The guy had on a black jumpsuit and the packer, I won't mention names was telling him to "get the hell out of there". Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #61 July 20, 2004 I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if I'm out of sequence or something. IMO, you should ALWAYS pay the packer. Your gear is YOUR responsibility, regardless of the circumstance. It is your butt it's gonna save or not. If you choose to give your gear to someone whom you do not know, then you should expect any-ol-possible outcome. Know how to deal with the situations as they arise... To get angry about how your gear was packed is ridiculous, IMHO.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ltdiver 3 #62 July 20, 2004 QuoteI think it was Sunday. The guy had on a black jumpsuit and the packer, I won't mention names was telling him to "get the hell out of there". Perhaps he returned, after being asked to leave on Saturday? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Evelyn 0 #63 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI think it was Sunday. The guy had on a black jumpsuit and the packer, I won't mention names was telling him to "get the hell out of there". Perhaps he returned, after being asked to leave on Saturday? ltdiver Or maybe it was a different guy. I just know that I saw it and I wasn't there Saturday evening so what I saw had to happen on Sunday. Yeah, I know our memory goes as we get older, but don't let Dom tell you your're losin it if you aren't. There will be plenty of time for that later. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #64 July 20, 2004 QuoteDo you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem? I don't work for the diplomatic corps. I'm not interested in solving problems like this. People that winge over issues like this... I don't understand. I'd be happier if they went away - and over the last 20 years, most of them have. I don't miss them. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jasmin 0 #65 July 20, 2004 For most packers its a stated case of "all care taken, no responsibility accepted." Sure you'd like a nice opening, but unless they're packing student/tandem/work gear, where they're getting paid specifically to give a pack job that'll open, you're paying them so you can be lazy. If I have a reserve ride as a directly result of someone else's pack job, I'm not going to be a happy camper. But at the end of the day, unless there's a guarantee from the packer, you get what you pay for- a packed rig! The killer is, if you're daft enough to get on a plane without doing a gear check, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your ability to look after yourself. ie skydive safely. xj "I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pccoder 0 #66 July 20, 2004 Yes, pay the packer. Two, check your own shit!! Three, Starting a fight is real mature. Not. If we are going to get into fist fights, we don't belong on the DZ. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowie 0 #67 July 20, 2004 There seems to be alot of different views to what is right and wrong here. Much as I hate intervention by authorites, maybe this is something that relevant controlling body should make a policy on (ie BPA in the UK) and thereby giving a uniform response to packing disputes. At the very least a DZ policy explained to new jumpers could sort this out. Going by the variety of answers in this thread I have no idea how I would approach this situation. I do know getting into a fight wouldnt be an option - it sure as hell hasnt fixed the initial problem - just created more. mike I know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riddler 0 #68 July 20, 2004 Depends on if the kill-line was definitely cocked or not. If I go to McDonalds and order a hamburger, they serve the hamburger without cooking the meat, and I eat it without checking it, it's both our fault. I should have checked it before I ate it, but they also should have cooked it. I would demand my money back, and you can bet McDonalds would refund me. That's a fair and expected relationship. You pay for a service, and if the full service isn't delivered, you get your money back. If the kill-line was indeed cocked, the packer should get paid. There's a difference between not getting a service and only thinking you didn't get a service.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #69 July 20, 2004 There are a couple of product purchase analogies in this thread that aren’t quite correct. Paying a packer isn’t quite the same as paying for a product where the product must be fit for the purpose etc. Rather you are paying for a service. With a service the rules are a little different, as it simply has to be executed with “reasonable” skill. Now what is considered “reasonable” skill for a packer may be quite a high hurdle (risk of death and all), but that’s not to say it has to be perfect… just done with reasonable care. IMO, where the pilot chute is cocked and the window is only just showing blank, (as here), that’s a pack job executed with reasonable skill. He got what he paid for, and the packer carried out his job with the level of care required of him by ordinary tort law. Now if the pilot chute was not cocked…. perhaps there may be an argument that the packer had not exercised reasonable care…. but that’s not the case here. I can’t see an issue – he should have paid up. (Comments based on general legal principals and not the relevant local jurisdiction) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites EricTheRed 0 #70 July 20, 2004 QuoteIf I have a reserve ride as a directly result of someone else's pack job, I'm not going to be a happy camper I had a bag lock that was the direct result of having paid someone to pack. I was very happy to pay for my reserve repack and a bottle of "riggers choice". But then I was happy to just be alive. I did stop using that packer though...illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #71 July 20, 2004 [rant] I always pack my own. I think people are getting way too damn lazy to not. I guess its ok sometimes. Maybe when you get old and your back hurts or something. I also know people who aren't very good at packing themselves who also pay people to pack for them. I'm talking about people fairly new to the sport. That mentality also crosses over into their drive to improve themselves in other aspects of the sport. How do you ever get better if you're not self-sufficient and rely on everybody else to carry you? I have kids. It's kind of like buying them slip on shoes that don't need to be tied and they never learn to tie their own. [/rant] In reference to the incident, I've fixed those kinds of mistakes in the plane. Some may not agree with that. It's just something I do. Most of the time, it's not that it wasn't cocked; it's just that it snaked back in a bit where the marker didn't show. That's not uncommon. I made my mark a bit longer for that very reason. Otherwise, just get somebody to hold the pin and gently pull the bridle. It may bunch up a little and look ugly but it will work. I guess, though, technically speaking and if I was the packer, the pack job wasn’t satisfactory for the jumper and, therefore, I wouldn’t expect to be paid. It’s not exactly right if the marked portion of the kill line isn’t showing even if it could be easily fixed and the jumper is too inexperienced or just a dumbass for not knowing. That’s just the way it goes. Gotta be fair. But I say Jump Damnit!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #72 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuotebut I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. I would say that is a "high school" way to handle the situation. Pulling someones reserve is not a smart thing to do. Do you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem? Agree here. Kick someone off your DZ? Sure, perfectly right. But don't touch the personal property. I don't see any difference in 'firing his reserve and then kick him off' and 'run out and key his car paint job and kick him off'. Mucking with another's personal property is childish. That crosses the line and now it's in the realm of childishness. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #73 July 20, 2004 QuoteThere are a couple of product purchase analogies in this thread that aren’t quite correct...Now what is considered “reasonable” skill for a packer may be quite a high hurdle (risk of death and all), but that’s not to say it has to be perfect… just done with reasonable care. IMO, where the pilot chute is cocked and the window is only just showing blank, (as here), that’s a pack job executed with reasonable skill. He got what he paid for, and the packer carried out his job with the level of care required of him by ordinary tort law. Now if the pilot chute was not cocked…. perhaps there may be an argument that the packer had not exercised reasonable care…. but that’s not the case here. (Comments based on general legal principals and not the relevant local jurisdiction) The law in this case is Federal Aviation Law (parts 61 and 105) that require a rigger (or packer under the direct supervision of a rigger) to follow the manufacturers recommendations. The manufacturers of kill line pilot chutes require that if so equiped, the colored section be visible. That's the standard that must be used. If the mark has moved because the kill line has stretched or shrunk, or has worn off, it shouldn't be packed. Many people ignore that standard, but that is the actual equipment maintenance standard, and a rigger or packer is required to follow it. Sometimes it's a matter of the colored section fading, but sometimes the kill line has shrunk through use, and the apex of the pilot chute is actually being pulled down, reducing the effectiveness of the pilot chute. When a person packs a main parachute for himself, the standard is whatever he wants it to be. When a rigger or packer (under the direct supervision of a rigger) packs, the standard is the manufacturers directions. That's not a matter of a paying for a general service, but rather it is a matter of paying for a very specific federally mandated service.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cderham 0 #74 July 20, 2004 Besides the more you do for them like stowing your brakes, uncolapsing your slider and cocking your pilotchute all save your packer time. These are things you can do in the landing area BSing with your buddies about the jump. It also makes your rig nicer for a packer to pack. This maybe advantage when you are at a large boogie on a short call and your packer has 2 rigs in front of you. It maybe the minute you need to do a proper check of your gear and get to the plane GEARED UP. Plus if you help them they will get you on another load short call or not and "do what ever it takes" Chris Chris It's Jimmy Time!! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fast-As-Fuck/6099474213 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #75 July 20, 2004 QuoteThere seems to be alot of different views to what is right and wrong here. Much as I hate intervention by authorites, maybe this is something that relevant controlling body should make a policy on (ie BPA in the UK) and thereby giving a uniform response to packing disputes. At the very least a DZ policy explained to new jumpers could sort this out. bah... keep government as far away from the DZ as possible. Policies should be determined locally, not globally. If you dont like a particular dz's/packer's policies, your free to go elsewhere...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
ianmdrennan 2 #53 July 19, 2004 QuoteJust wondering if something more could have been done after the pin check in the plane revealed the possible problem. Something that would have salvaged his jump anyways. I would make sure the door was closed, then ask one of my teammates to cock my pilot chute (I prefer not to get out of a rig once I'm in the plane), roll it up and restow the bridal + pilot chute. All in all a 2 min fix (if that). Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #54 July 19, 2004 Thats what I was thinking. I pack quite a bit and I'd say on a good number of the rigs, the PC can be cocked and not show it on the window, due either to a 1/4 inch uncocking during bagging or just not having the color on the right area. I can only SO disagree with that notion! 1. If there WAS color in the window when it was cocked initially and is no longer there when you bag it, then you recock it to be sure that it can be verified! 2. If you cock the P/C and there is no color in the window and you know that it is sufficiently cocked(if not, show a rigger),then you get a permanent marker and put some color on it or don't pack the P/C and let the owner make the call. The window is there for a reason! As for paying the packer, if the packer checks and KNOWS that there WAS color in the window when initially packed and upon inspection finds that the line had moved slightly out of the window AFTER he closed it with the color visible then he gets paid! Had the jumper checked the window before boarding and seen color and then it wasn't visible before he exited, he knows that it WAS completely cocked when boarding, he should understand the risk/circumstance and make his own choice to exit or not. PHREE, I agree with your thoughts on your own P/C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabr190 0 #55 July 19, 2004 QuoteQuotebut I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. I would say that is a "high school" way to handle the situation. Pulling someones reserve is not a smart thing to do. Do you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem? I would have to agree with you there, I could assure you of an escalation in hostility if you pulled my reserve handle. But then again, I would have given my gear a check before putting it on. I have also paid for a mal, I wasn't pissed and still tried to pay him, he would not accept payment and arranged for a rig for me to jump while he had my reserve re-packed. True professional "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" - rehmwa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,989 #56 July 20, 2004 >Just wondering if something more could have been done after the pin >check in the plane revealed the possible problem. A pin check is of limited utility if you don't even understand the gear well enough to know if the kill line mark is really visible (only about half are, in my experience.) There's only so much you can check in the plane; I can't even get a reserve pin check on my rig. But I like it that way, because there's less for people to mess with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #57 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday) Laurie, I want some of what ever time altering drug you have. This happened on Saturday night. Did you sleep a whole day away? Dom, Perhaps you're right, Dom. Sorry. Weekend days might seem to flow together. Whatever day it was, this happened over in the north packing area....ya know, where the freefliers usually pack. Lori Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
burbleflyer 0 #58 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuote3) While every jumper is responsible for checking his own gear, the packer is responsible for making sure the work is done properly. The FAA allows an individual jumper to pack his own main parachute, but if that parachute is packed by anybody else, the work must be done either by a rigger, or under the direct supervision of a rigger. The FAA defines “direct supervision” to include taking responsibility for that packing. By this federal standard, the packer (or his supervisor) is responsible for the pack job. (See 14 CFR, part 105.43(a) and 105.3 listed below) Ideally, both the packer and the customer will check the bridle to ensure the pilot chute has been set. In this case it appears neither person checked the work. The packer or rigger is required to understand and follow all manufacturers procedures, and that includes the directions for packing a collapsible pilot chute, if one is installed. The workmanship and final inspection are the responsibility of the packer, and since he failed to do what is expected by the manufacturer and the regulations, he should not charge for the work. The jumper should have checked the workmanship before boarding the airplane, but did not, so the jumper should be responsible for the cost of the unused jump ticket. (See 14 CFR part 65.129(e)) 4) Mistakes sometimes happen in any business, and in any relationship. It’s possible the bridle marking may have worn off, or it may have been just inside the window and not visible. It is also possible that the pilot chute was not set at all. Once the problem was detected and the jumper was back on the ground, the best solution would have been for the packer to realize he had not delivered the rig in jumpable condition, and he should have immediately offered a refund on the pack job. He should have then pulled the line out of the bridle a short distance to see if it was marked and set, and should have helped the jumper to understand how to do that simple inspection on his own. If the bridle was not set at all, the packer should apologize for making the mistake and repack the rig from the start to detect any other errors that might have been made, and to reassure his customer. 5) Packers need to think of themselves as both mechanics who deal with equipment, and business people who deal with customers. Quote Federal Aviation Regulations 105.43 (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use of a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. 105.3 Direct Supervision means that a certificated rigger personally observes a non-certificated person packing a main parachute to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly, and takes responsibility for that packing. 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may… (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute… To simplify, a main packed by anybody other than the jumper has to meet all the requirements of a reserve, except the logging and seal. If the PC wasn't cocked at all, refund the pack job and at least half the ticket. (Other half on jumper for not checking on the ground) But, I'd refund all the ticket and appologize profusely. If your main doesn't work your started on the cascade to a fatality. PC in tow is one of the scariest, I've been there. If the kill line had slipped but the PC was still functional, the "offer" not to pay the packer is reasonable. "You pay your money and take your chance" with a main pack job. Hmmm, you should be paying for rigger quality and responsibility. They should be held to the same responsibility as a reserve. They're covered under the same regs. Now, is this reasonable. Probably not, and thats why I don't pack mains. (I take that back. I will pack a main, for my regular $40 fee) I'm held to the same standard, means the same cost. Hmmm do I need Nomex? +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigbearfng 18 #59 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuotethe packer and the jumper should buy the ticket...Neither should resort to this kind of behavior...its just stupid... From the way it went down. The jumper should have been kicked off the dropzone. When this guy got on the ground he went over and started having words with the packer. Then he started shoving and pushing. Their comes a point when it is self defense. This jumper was way out of line. The kicker is. The damn PC was cocked! IT was shown to him (the jumpe) that it was cocked. The color on the kill line had flipped under. It was fine. This jumper is new and doesn't pack for him self ever. Probably doesn't. Really know how to do it. Another reason that new jumpers should pack for themselves. He would have learned already that half the damn kill lines you seee don't have any color on them andymore. People either packed it themselves and know that they cocked it or they check it on the ground. I am not telling anyone to do this, but I have even jumped knowing that my PC wasn't cocked. It opend just fine. Good strong throw on the pull and right to the handles just in case. Please tell me this jumper is now banished from the dz!!?? According to your description of the way it went down-personally I would have had him in handcuffs and off to jail!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Evelyn 0 #60 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs far at the day this incident occurred...it was today (Sunday) Laurie, I want some of what ever time altering drug you have. This happened on Saturday night. Did you sleep a whole day away? Dom, Perhaps you're right, Dom. Sorry. Weekend days might seem to flow together. Whatever day it was, this happened over in the north packing area....ya know, where the freefliers usually pack. Lori I think Lori might be right because I saw the altercation and I left early on Saturday , like 3:30, but I was there later on Sunday. I think it was Sunday. The guy had on a black jumpsuit and the packer, I won't mention names was telling him to "get the hell out of there". Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #61 July 20, 2004 I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if I'm out of sequence or something. IMO, you should ALWAYS pay the packer. Your gear is YOUR responsibility, regardless of the circumstance. It is your butt it's gonna save or not. If you choose to give your gear to someone whom you do not know, then you should expect any-ol-possible outcome. Know how to deal with the situations as they arise... To get angry about how your gear was packed is ridiculous, IMHO.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #62 July 20, 2004 QuoteI think it was Sunday. The guy had on a black jumpsuit and the packer, I won't mention names was telling him to "get the hell out of there". Perhaps he returned, after being asked to leave on Saturday? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Evelyn 0 #63 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI think it was Sunday. The guy had on a black jumpsuit and the packer, I won't mention names was telling him to "get the hell out of there". Perhaps he returned, after being asked to leave on Saturday? ltdiver Or maybe it was a different guy. I just know that I saw it and I wasn't there Saturday evening so what I saw had to happen on Sunday. Yeah, I know our memory goes as we get older, but don't let Dom tell you your're losin it if you aren't. There will be plenty of time for that later. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing ~ Helen Keller Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #64 July 20, 2004 QuoteDo you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem? I don't work for the diplomatic corps. I'm not interested in solving problems like this. People that winge over issues like this... I don't understand. I'd be happier if they went away - and over the last 20 years, most of them have. I don't miss them. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jasmin 0 #65 July 20, 2004 For most packers its a stated case of "all care taken, no responsibility accepted." Sure you'd like a nice opening, but unless they're packing student/tandem/work gear, where they're getting paid specifically to give a pack job that'll open, you're paying them so you can be lazy. If I have a reserve ride as a directly result of someone else's pack job, I'm not going to be a happy camper. But at the end of the day, unless there's a guarantee from the packer, you get what you pay for- a packed rig! The killer is, if you're daft enough to get on a plane without doing a gear check, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your ability to look after yourself. ie skydive safely. xj "I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pccoder 0 #66 July 20, 2004 Yes, pay the packer. Two, check your own shit!! Three, Starting a fight is real mature. Not. If we are going to get into fist fights, we don't belong on the DZ. PcCoder.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowie 0 #67 July 20, 2004 There seems to be alot of different views to what is right and wrong here. Much as I hate intervention by authorites, maybe this is something that relevant controlling body should make a policy on (ie BPA in the UK) and thereby giving a uniform response to packing disputes. At the very least a DZ policy explained to new jumpers could sort this out. Going by the variety of answers in this thread I have no idea how I would approach this situation. I do know getting into a fight wouldnt be an option - it sure as hell hasnt fixed the initial problem - just created more. mike I know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #68 July 20, 2004 Depends on if the kill-line was definitely cocked or not. If I go to McDonalds and order a hamburger, they serve the hamburger without cooking the meat, and I eat it without checking it, it's both our fault. I should have checked it before I ate it, but they also should have cooked it. I would demand my money back, and you can bet McDonalds would refund me. That's a fair and expected relationship. You pay for a service, and if the full service isn't delivered, you get your money back. If the kill-line was indeed cocked, the packer should get paid. There's a difference between not getting a service and only thinking you didn't get a service.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #69 July 20, 2004 There are a couple of product purchase analogies in this thread that aren’t quite correct. Paying a packer isn’t quite the same as paying for a product where the product must be fit for the purpose etc. Rather you are paying for a service. With a service the rules are a little different, as it simply has to be executed with “reasonable” skill. Now what is considered “reasonable” skill for a packer may be quite a high hurdle (risk of death and all), but that’s not to say it has to be perfect… just done with reasonable care. IMO, where the pilot chute is cocked and the window is only just showing blank, (as here), that’s a pack job executed with reasonable skill. He got what he paid for, and the packer carried out his job with the level of care required of him by ordinary tort law. Now if the pilot chute was not cocked…. perhaps there may be an argument that the packer had not exercised reasonable care…. but that’s not the case here. I can’t see an issue – he should have paid up. (Comments based on general legal principals and not the relevant local jurisdiction) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #70 July 20, 2004 QuoteIf I have a reserve ride as a directly result of someone else's pack job, I'm not going to be a happy camper I had a bag lock that was the direct result of having paid someone to pack. I was very happy to pay for my reserve repack and a bottle of "riggers choice". But then I was happy to just be alive. I did stop using that packer though...illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #71 July 20, 2004 [rant] I always pack my own. I think people are getting way too damn lazy to not. I guess its ok sometimes. Maybe when you get old and your back hurts or something. I also know people who aren't very good at packing themselves who also pay people to pack for them. I'm talking about people fairly new to the sport. That mentality also crosses over into their drive to improve themselves in other aspects of the sport. How do you ever get better if you're not self-sufficient and rely on everybody else to carry you? I have kids. It's kind of like buying them slip on shoes that don't need to be tied and they never learn to tie their own. [/rant] In reference to the incident, I've fixed those kinds of mistakes in the plane. Some may not agree with that. It's just something I do. Most of the time, it's not that it wasn't cocked; it's just that it snaked back in a bit where the marker didn't show. That's not uncommon. I made my mark a bit longer for that very reason. Otherwise, just get somebody to hold the pin and gently pull the bridle. It may bunch up a little and look ugly but it will work. I guess, though, technically speaking and if I was the packer, the pack job wasn’t satisfactory for the jumper and, therefore, I wouldn’t expect to be paid. It’s not exactly right if the marked portion of the kill line isn’t showing even if it could be easily fixed and the jumper is too inexperienced or just a dumbass for not knowing. That’s just the way it goes. Gotta be fair. But I say Jump Damnit!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #72 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuotebut I'd fire their reserve for fucking sure. If they want to box after that - I'm game. I would say that is a "high school" way to handle the situation. Pulling someones reserve is not a smart thing to do. Do you think that would help the situation or just make a bigger problem? Agree here. Kick someone off your DZ? Sure, perfectly right. But don't touch the personal property. I don't see any difference in 'firing his reserve and then kick him off' and 'run out and key his car paint job and kick him off'. Mucking with another's personal property is childish. That crosses the line and now it's in the realm of childishness. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #73 July 20, 2004 QuoteThere are a couple of product purchase analogies in this thread that aren’t quite correct...Now what is considered “reasonable” skill for a packer may be quite a high hurdle (risk of death and all), but that’s not to say it has to be perfect… just done with reasonable care. IMO, where the pilot chute is cocked and the window is only just showing blank, (as here), that’s a pack job executed with reasonable skill. He got what he paid for, and the packer carried out his job with the level of care required of him by ordinary tort law. Now if the pilot chute was not cocked…. perhaps there may be an argument that the packer had not exercised reasonable care…. but that’s not the case here. (Comments based on general legal principals and not the relevant local jurisdiction) The law in this case is Federal Aviation Law (parts 61 and 105) that require a rigger (or packer under the direct supervision of a rigger) to follow the manufacturers recommendations. The manufacturers of kill line pilot chutes require that if so equiped, the colored section be visible. That's the standard that must be used. If the mark has moved because the kill line has stretched or shrunk, or has worn off, it shouldn't be packed. Many people ignore that standard, but that is the actual equipment maintenance standard, and a rigger or packer is required to follow it. Sometimes it's a matter of the colored section fading, but sometimes the kill line has shrunk through use, and the apex of the pilot chute is actually being pulled down, reducing the effectiveness of the pilot chute. When a person packs a main parachute for himself, the standard is whatever he wants it to be. When a rigger or packer (under the direct supervision of a rigger) packs, the standard is the manufacturers directions. That's not a matter of a paying for a general service, but rather it is a matter of paying for a very specific federally mandated service.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cderham 0 #74 July 20, 2004 Besides the more you do for them like stowing your brakes, uncolapsing your slider and cocking your pilotchute all save your packer time. These are things you can do in the landing area BSing with your buddies about the jump. It also makes your rig nicer for a packer to pack. This maybe advantage when you are at a large boogie on a short call and your packer has 2 rigs in front of you. It maybe the minute you need to do a proper check of your gear and get to the plane GEARED UP. Plus if you help them they will get you on another load short call or not and "do what ever it takes" Chris Chris It's Jimmy Time!! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fast-As-Fuck/6099474213 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #75 July 20, 2004 QuoteThere seems to be alot of different views to what is right and wrong here. Much as I hate intervention by authorites, maybe this is something that relevant controlling body should make a policy on (ie BPA in the UK) and thereby giving a uniform response to packing disputes. At the very least a DZ policy explained to new jumpers could sort this out. bah... keep government as far away from the DZ as possible. Policies should be determined locally, not globally. If you dont like a particular dz's/packer's policies, your free to go elsewhere...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
