Nightingale 0 #26 June 23, 2004 I would say they have a moral responsibility to not sell the canopy to someone they know will abuse it or is not ready for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conundrum 1 #27 June 23, 2004 There's only so much babysitting someone can do before it is the buyers responsibility. People need to be held accountable for their actions, and/or purchases. If a buyer decides to buy a canopy from me I would of course ask what they were flying before and such, maybe ask someone who knows them about their canopy control, but that's it. If they decide to do something stupid under the canopy they bought from me, is it my fault? No, people in this sport are adults, they should act like it and take responsibility for what they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #28 June 23, 2004 QuoteIf they decide to do something stupid under the canopy they bought from me, is it my faul Depends a lot on the type of canopy. Sell someone with 50 jumps a used Spectre with a reasonable wingloading and they do something stupid, not your fault at all. Sell someone with a couple hundred jumps a Velocity at 1.7+ and they do something stupid... imho it might not be your fault but could you really sleep at night knowing that you handed him the gun? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #29 June 23, 2004 I just shipped out my 85 XAOS to someone on here. Their profile says that they have about 400 more jumps(1400+) than I had when I got it. It also says their current canopy is a stiletto 97 loading over 2/1. He also told me he jumped a XAOS 78 over the weekend and loved it. Do I feel any responsibility after reading and hearing that confirmed by another very conservative poster here? Not no, but hell no. Would I have shipped it to a 300 jump wonder? 500 jump wonder? Hell no! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conundrum 1 #30 June 23, 2004 Quote Depends a lot on the type of canopy. Sell someone with 50 jumps a used Spectre with a reasonable wingloading and they do something stupid, not your fault at all. Sell someone with a couple hundred jumps a Velocity at 1.7+ and they do something stupid... imho it might not be your fault but could you really sleep at night knowing that you handed him the gun? Well, that's why I said this: QuoteI would of course ask what they were flying before and such, maybe ask someone who knows them about their canopy control If you are stupid enough to sell a canopy to someone without at least looking at their logbook and seeing/asking what they have been flying and or asking them about their history, you'd be moronic. This is I guess not a question that you can answer with one general answer, it's more of a case by case thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #31 June 23, 2004 No way in hell is the seller responsible. No one is ever forced to skydive. If you jump a canopy, it is because you *chose* to jump that canopy. Other people are not liable for decisions that you make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #32 June 23, 2004 QuoteHey, und dummkopf! Watch out for the CD-changer in my trunk, eh? Idiot. Hey, funboys, get a room. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #33 June 23, 2004 QuoteHey, funboys, get a room. Ja ja ja, mach schnell mit der art things, huh? I must get back to Dancecentrum in Stuttgart in time to see Kraftwerk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #34 June 23, 2004 Caveat Emptor.... We are all over 18 (well unless your a mullin,nelson etc).. Now if the DZO lets you bounce at their place thats a different story..I jump where I do because of their saftey record. ....All I got to say about that.. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #35 June 23, 2004 You're looking for a Mr. Smithers, eh? First name Waylon, is it? Now listen here, you. When I get a hold of you I'm going to pull out your eyes and shove 'em down your pants,,, so you can watch me kick the crap out of you. OK? Then I'm gonna use your tongue to paint my boat. also http://www.ebaumsworld.com/homer.html ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyRamone 0 #36 June 23, 2004 If i sell a gun am i responsible if the person goes and kills someone with it? No i am not if it was a legal deal.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #37 June 23, 2004 QuoteYou're looking for a Mr. Smithers, eh? First name Waylon, is it? Now listen here, you. When I get a hold of you I'm going to pull out your eyes and shove 'em down your pants,,, so you can watch me kick the crap out of you. OK? Then I'm gonna use your tongue to paint my boat. "Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter." http://www.snpp.com is also an excellent resource. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panzwami 0 #38 June 23, 2004 QuoteIf i sell a gun am i responsible if the person goes and kills someone with it? No i am not if it was a legal deal.... Maybe not right this second, but give it a while. Rosie is on the case!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #39 June 23, 2004 > If i sell a gun am i responsible if the person goes and kills someone with it? Legally responsible, no. Morally responsible? Yes, if you sell a gun to an idiot who doesn't have a lick of common sense, you bear some of the moral responsibility for his eventual accidental shooting of the next door neighbor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funks 1 #40 June 23, 2004 Quote> If i sell a gun am i responsible if the person goes and kills someone with it? Legally responsible, no. Morally responsible? Yes, if you sell a gun to an idiot who doesn't have a lick of common sense, you bear some of the moral responsibility for his eventual accidental shooting of the next door neighbor. Does that mean if the same idiot runs over his neighbor with his new Ford Focus then the car salesman is morally responsible??? I dont believe so....There comes a point in time where people need to stop pointing fingers and eventually realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #41 June 23, 2004 And what if we have a situation like this - say I eventually want to end up on a swoop type canopy - like a stiletto 120. Lets say I find a killer deal - someone wanting to get rid of it cheap - say $100. No way I'd jump it now (in reality, no way I'd ever jump that You see I got 95 jumps and I miss out on the deal. I think the biggest thing here is that we have to take responsibilty for our own actions. Society as a whole has tried to idiot proof everything and it's not working. After all that has happened - if people like me, with low jump numbers still insist on jumping those canopies, then there should be no sympathy. The real shame is the black eye skydiving gets everytime one of us pounds in. Jump You pays your money - you takes your chances.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #42 June 23, 2004 QuoteDoes that mean if the same idiot runs over his neighbor with his new Ford Focus then the car salesman is morally responsible??? I dont believe so....There comes a point in time where people need to stop pointing fingers and eventually realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions. If the car salesman sells a car to an unlicensed person (read: someone incapable of driving it, either actually or legally), there are going to be repercussions. But they're two different animals . . . If we're not going to at least TRY to look out for each other, we might as well just stab every FJC student to death when they come in, b/c it'll be like handing them a death sentence. Just like letting someone get a license without a driver's test. We have to ATTEMPT to help and watch out for each other. Make a freaking phone call before you end up handing over a HP canopy to someone who will hurt themselves with it. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #43 June 23, 2004 QuoteYou see I got 95 jumps and I miss out on the deal. So? I guess I'm missing your point. There will likely be "killer deals" on the canopy you want when you are ready for it. If not, well, how bad do you want it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 June 23, 2004 Quote If the car salesman sells a car to an unlicensed person (read: someone incapable of driving it, either actually or legally), there are going to be repercussions. I don't believe having a license is a requirement to buy a car, and dealers will sell. Motorcycle shops sell new bikes (cha-ching!) to new riders all the time. It remains the duty of the buyer to either hand to keys to someone else, or get the license before operating the vehicle. The seller (or you or I selling a used car) have no responsibility in the matter. Obviously there would be no test drive in these circumstances. The duty of car in this subject is a moral one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #45 June 23, 2004 Ok, well, they couldn't let them drive it off the lot. Whatever . . . don't confuse this with the facts! Anyway, I still stand by my point, although the metaphor's no good. I just don't understand why it's so hard to call someone's DZO or S&TA before selling a canopy to them. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #46 June 23, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou see I got 95 jumps and I miss out on the deal. So? I guess I'm missing your point. Another analogy then would be, say I'm having a cookout in 2 weeks and the grocery story is running a one day special on baby back ribs for $0.10/lb - a killer deal. I don't need the ribs for two weeks but do I pass this up and wait and pay a much higher price? Same with the canopy, if I see a good deal on a canopy I eventually want to end up on but am not ready to jump right now, why should I be refused the right to buy it? JumpScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #47 June 23, 2004 Because you know you won't be able to wait as long as you need to once the canopy is in your possession . . . no one would. Tough luck . . . you were just behind the curve on this one. Edited to show I'm not a total bitch. I knew the situation was hypothetical, which is why I worded it the way I did. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #48 June 23, 2004 QuoteSame with the canopy, if I see a good deal on a canopy I eventually want to end up on but am not ready to jump right now, why should I be refused the right to buy it? There are some people who are capable of exercising self restraint. Most who hop on the "good deal bandwagon" when coming to canopies don't. I think the temptation is just too much. That's my thoughts on it anyway. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #49 June 23, 2004 QuoteThere are some people who are capable of exercising self restraint. Most who hop on the "good deal bandwagon" when coming to canopies don't. I think the temptation is just too much. That's my thoughts on it anyway. Blues, Ian I agree with you, but it presents us with one of those kinds of moral dilemmas like the Kobayashi Maru test in Star Trek - there really isn't a clear cut solution to this problem. As I was trying to point out earlier, it all comes down to questions of one's judgement and acceptance of responsibility. The problem I see here is that we are becoming less and less responsible every day (in many more aspects of life than just skydiving). I can easily see why Ron gets so agitated and short with people. JumpScars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #50 June 23, 2004 Voted not their concern, but with the restriction that they would talk enough to the buyer if they are not ready. If the seller seriously tells the buyer that the canopy he wants to buy is still too dangerous for him and he should really consider something more docile, but the buyer insist to buy, you can't blame the seller. If the seller didn't give a sh*t, selling the pocketrocket to whoever just came by looking for a canopy, he would be responsible IMO.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
