Is someone who is selling a canopy responsible for who it is sold to?

[FrogNog 1]

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If i sell a gun am i responsible if the person goes and kills someone with it? No i am not if it was a legal deal....

First, in my circle of gun friends, guns should only ever be bought, not sold. But ignoring that...

Nobody I know will sell a gun to someone they don't trust. And when they do trust someone they're selling a gun to, their statement to anyone who asks about the sale later is "I checked that he had a concealed pistol license, and that was good enough for me. I forget who it was exactly, though."

Now, we wouldn't sell a rig to a whuffo without a second thought. The rigs even say things on them like "don't lend this to a whuffo or he'll go get hisself hurt or kilt!" We at least check that they have an "A" license in most cases.

But there's no license for arbitrary canopies. So, what do we do?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[funks 1]

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If i sell a gun am i responsible if the person goes and kills someone with it? No i am not if it was a legal deal....

First, in my circle of gun friends, guns should only ever be bought, not sold. But ignoring that...

Nobody I know will sell a gun to someone they don't trust. And when they do trust someone they're selling a gun to, their statement to anyone who asks about the sale later is "I checked that he had a concealed pistol license, and that was good enough for me. I forget who it was exactly, though."

Now, we wouldn't sell a rig to a whuffo without a second thought. The rigs even say things on them like "don't lend this to a whuffo or he'll go get hisself hurt or kilt!" We at least check that they have an "A" license in most cases.

But there's no license for arbitrary canopies. So, what do we do?

Actually I probably would sell a rig to a whuffo, the odds of them actually going to a dropzone and getting on a load are pretty thin...i'll take their money any day if they are willing to give it up.

[Squeak 17]

I would consider it irrisponsable to sell a canopy to someone who, you KNOW is not ready to fly it.
However I also dont beleive it is necassary for the seller to scrutinize the buyer to accertain if they are capable of flying it.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[CloudOnMyTongue 0]

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There comes a point in time where people need to stop pointing fingers and eventually realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Well said. I agree.

[Squeak 17]

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There comes a point in time where people need to stop pointing fingers and eventually realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Well said. I agree.

Hmm does that include the action of selling an inappropriate canopy to an inexperienced jumper?

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[funks 1]

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There comes a point in time where people need to stop pointing fingers and eventually realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Well said. I agree.

Hmm does that include the action of selling an inappropriate canopy to an inexperienced jumper?

that, among other things, is exactly what the above comments were referring to

[jumperconway 0]

Well I see in the latest vote has taken a decidedly NOPE turn! Self responsibility...

[rehmwa 2]

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Well I see in the latest vote has taken a decidedly NOPE turn! Self responsibility...

Not statistically significant - (ie, not enough votes to say this isn't essentially a tie)

Sample X N Sample p
1 74 136 0.544118
2 62 136 0.455882

Difference = p (1) - p (2)
Estimate for difference: 0.0882353
95% CI for difference: (-0.0301415, 0.206612)
Test for difference = 0 (vs not = 0): Z = 1.46 P-Value = 0.144

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jumperconway 0]

Whatever
Just noting that the early voting was decidedly yes!

[Stumpy 284]

I voted yes but i think I would be more cafreful if i was selling something tiny and want to see a logbook etc or some other evidence - licenses for example.
I teach kitesurfing and recently i wouldn't sell a guy a 16m2 high performance kite because he wanted it to learn on. I personally know 1 person and know of 2 others who have been killed kiting this year. Having said that he then took his business elsewhere and the nxt time i saw him he was being dragged down a beach at about 20 knots

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[crutch 0]

I love reading threads like this! So many differing opinons on something that is so cut and dry!

I of course voted no, not that morally I do have a problem selling a small canopy to someone who shouldn't be jumping it. I have one sitting on the shelf in my closet. But, when did we in this sport decide we were not going to accept responsibilty for our actions. This of course includes all of us from DZO's, instructors and all the fun jumpers out there. We have let people jump smaller canopies here, what I mean is smaller than a lot of these threads believed possible. Some of theses people got hurt somewhere down the line also. When did it become someone besides the operator's responsibilty to take credit for their own actions. We all see an accident and know the person who got hurt was at fault, do we go out and form a lynch mob hunting done anyone remotely involved in the jump (other than the jumper of course, that is what is going on here). Or do we call a spade a spade and say hey dude you really screwed up and learn from it.

Yes, young skydivers (jump # young) are getting hurt jumping high-performance canopies, but there are a lot of experienced people getting hury under them also. Where do you draw the line? Ultimately, the person under the parachute has to decide. We have finally gotten to the point in skydiving where people are in the sport that are in over their heads by making the equipment so safe, yet we keep hurting ourselves.

Where are you going to draw the line? We have jumped at Jax Beach (moved the dropzone there for the day) on the Fourth the last few years. It is always a concern about who gets to jump and who doesn't. Is it the younger jumpers endangering the crowds of people at the beach. Nope, it has been an AFF instuctor, two very expereinced cameramen (not wearing cameras at the time) and another jumper with over a thousand jumps. So how are we suppose to weed out the potential hazards?

I know I am ranting and the people who know me are laughing, but the responsibility of what to jump, where to jump and how to conduct yourself on the jumper relies with the jumper, not the rest of us!

blue skies,

art

[WrongWay 0]

Yes it's definitely their concern. I'm not saying that if the buyer is dumb enough to hook himself in that the seller should be blamed, but personally, I'd give some thought into who I would sell a certain canopy to. If we're talking hp canopies, you bet your ass I'd never sell one to a low jump chump who thinks he's hot shit. Sellers should consider their buyer's experience before putting them under something they can't handle for the sake of having some extra cash.

In addition, I think canopy manufacturers should also take these things into more consideration. I've heard both good stories and bad stories about this involving different companies, but I could name a few recent examples of manufacturers putting jumpers under canopies they shouldn't be looking at, let alone flying.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[Sabre2th 0]

I think that when you buy gear and jump it, its your own ass. As long as you don't endanger other people, go ahead, let your ego choose your canopy. You will probably get shit about it if its a poor choice, and may even be banned from jumping at a DZ. I do not think that if you bought your grear from a private party, that they should carry any responsibility. A rigger, or manufacturer...maybe.
Just my 2 cents

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[WrongWay 0]

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go ahead, let your ego choose your canopy.

Never, ever, under any circumstance should ANYONE let their ego choose their canopy. It's all about skill and experience, ego doesn't provide either.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[PhreeZone 20]

>banned from jumping at a DZ

This is more of a myth anymore. DZO's hate to throw thousands of $ out the door just on a hunch. I'd like to see a list of all the DZ's that currently have some one banned and the reason why. Most times I'll bet its more of a personal difference with the DZO then it is anything else including safety hazzards.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Sabre2th 0]

The banned comment was more wishful thinking

No, I don't want people to choose canopies based on their ego....but they will, weather you want them to or not. People do stupid things, it sucks, and they give the sport a bad name when they hurt/kill themselves or others, but it still happens.

Edit: If someone REALLY wants to get a HP canopy and load it to god knows what, they will, one way or another. I am just saying I don't think it is the sellers resposibility. At least not anywhere beyond "Hey man, you are gonna hurt yourself with this, maybe you should try something different."

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[captainhook 0]

As a primarily a self-governed sport we all have an obligation to put our sports best interest in mind. Your first car or motorcycle wasn’t the fastest production vehicle on the street was it?? On the other hand you have the right to hook yourself in, just be responsible don’t take anyone with you.

[billvon 2,998]

>Does that mean if the same idiot runs over his neighbor with his new Ford
>Focus then the car salesman is morally responsible???

If YOU sell a Ford Focus to an 80 year old man that can't see, and let him drive it away - then yes, you bear some moral responsibility if he kills someone. Like I mentioned before, not legal, but moral, responsibility.

>There comes a point in time where people need to stop pointing fingers
>and eventually realize that everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. In the above example, the 80 year old man is responsible for the accident. However, we all have a responsibility to each other over and above any direct reponsibility for our actions. If you saw a thief mugging a woman, would you walk away and say "Hey, it's her responsibility to defend herself, and it's his fault for committing a crime?" I have a feeling you'd help out even if you did feel that way - because most of us feel a sense of responsibility towards other people and try to prevent them from being injured or killed. Even if you are not legally responsible for getting them in that situation to begin with.

Skydiving is no different. If you "walk away" from someone who is, through their own ignorance or incapacity, about to kill themselves or someone else, that's bad. Of course, sometimes you can talk until you're blue in the face and it doesn't do a thing; they will kill themselves anyway. But in my book, you have to make the effort.

[billvon 2,998]

>Lets say I find a killer deal - someone wanting to get rid of it cheap -
>say $100. No way I'd jump it now . . .

Judgement call. If I was selling a Xaos 85, and Lisa called and asked to buy it, intending to resell it to someone with low experience but strong canopy skills, I would have no problems selling it to her - because I trust her judgement. If Barbara wanted to buy the same canopy and work down to it, again, no problem because I know how careful she is. But there are several people I can think of who I would never sell such a canopy to, because they just don't have a lick of sense.

[Sabre2th 0]

my point exactly...you have to make an effort to persuade them otherwise, but it does not always work.

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[funks 1]

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>
> However, we all have a responsibility to each other over and above any direct reponsibility for our actions.

Sorry, I disgree. I have no responsibility for anybody but myself, my daughter and my family. Not trying to be an ass but that is a simple fact. Yes, I do believe in watching out for other peoples well being, but I am by no means RESPONSIBLE for anybody other than the people mentioned above.

[Squeak 17]

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>
> However, we all have a responsibility to each other over and above any direct reponsibility for our actions.

Sorry, I disgree. I have no responsibility for anybody but myself, my daughter and my family. Not trying to be an ass but that is a simple fact. Yes, I do believe in watching out for other peoples well being, but I am by no means RESPONSIBLE for anybody other than the people mentioned above.

Please NEVER becme an instructor if you hold that view

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[funks 1]

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>
> However, we all have a responsibility to each other over and above any direct reponsibility for our actions.

Sorry, I disgree. I have no responsibility for anybody but myself, my daughter and my family. Not trying to be an ass but that is a simple fact. Yes, I do believe in watching out for other peoples well being, but I am by no means RESPONSIBLE for anybody other than the people mentioned above.

Please NEVER becme an instructor if you hold that view

You are talking about something that is not relevant to this particular topic. If i am an instructor and it is my JOB to be responsible than that is a different story...,however, even instructors are only responsible to a certain degree.....

once again, it is my opinion that everyone no matter what at the end of the day is responsible for their own actions. Maybe if more people realized this we wouldnt have idiots suing mcdonalds because they spilled hot coffee on themselves or because they turned into a fatass for eating to many quarter pounders...

[billvon 2,998]

>Sorry, I disgree. I have no responsibility for anybody but myself, my
> daughter and my family. Not trying to be an ass but that is a simple
> fact.

I don't really believe that. I don't think you'd walk away from a woman being mugged. I think that, like most people, you would feel an obligation to try to help - even though you don't know her and it's her own fault for not knowing karate etc. I'd even go so far as to say that if you just walked away, and your friends found out, they'd ask you why you didn't help - and that's pretty much the definition of being responsible, which is to be required to give account of one's actions (or lack thereof.)

>Yes, I do believe in watching out for other peoples well being, but I
> am by no means RESPONSIBLE for anybody other than the people
> mentioned above.

Everyone bears a direct and immediate (and legal) responsibility for themselves. They bear a less direct responsibility for their families. (i.e. if your daughter someday got drunk and totalled a car, it wouldn't directly be your fault - although you might feel some guilt about not talking to her more about drinking or whatever.) They bear an even less direct responsibility to everyone else. But I believe that if you walk away from someone who needs help, someone who you can easily aid if you wanted to, there's a problem. We all, through our basic humanity, have a responsibility to try to help each other and make the world a better place. The people who do believe that (which, I think, is 90% of humanity) have done some pretty amazing things; they are the reason we can do things like cure some cancers, fix broken pelvises, feed billions of people, even skydive.

[crutch 0]

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I don't really believe that. I don't think you'd walk away from a woman being mugged.

But this is different, the woman in this scenario needs help and problably from her screams and body language is asking for help. When someone jumps a canopy that may be near the edge of their skill level, if they don't heed your advice, are you responsibile. They are not asking for help?

To me the mugging scenario campared to the jumping scene is more like this...A person goes out fishing in a small boat when small craft advisories have been posted. They get themselves in over their head and into a dangerous situation, why does the Coast Guard have to risk themselves to save this person from their on stupidity? And in this country, if the family finds out that the Coast Guard was somehow delayed in going to the rescue, some lawyer will actually sue the boat manufacturer, the engine manufacturer and somehow tie in a half-dozen other people with money. But, somehow the stupid idiot that went out in small-craft advisory weather is not at fault?

I know some people are going to be mad about this, but as a S&TA, we are the Coast Guard in the above scenario. We can put out all the warnings, the jumpers still do stupid things, then we end up risking ourselves to save them afterwards. There is a point where you say, the warnings are there, if you want to go out that bad, well we are not going to save you!

blue skies,

art