Stuck Toggle

[Nightingale 0]

on my second jump last weekend, I almost had a cutaway.

The canopy I was jumping: silhouette 190 with slinks.

I collapsed the slider, but didn't pull it down over the risers. Nobody'd ever told me I ought to do that.

I released the toggles, did my control check, and all seemed fine.

At about 3000 feet, I tried to pull down on the right toggle and it wouldn't move. It was stuck good. The slider had come down over the top of the riser and was pinning the toggle to the riser. I couldn't budge it. Bout all I could do with this canopy at this point was turn left.

Glancing at my alti, I realized I had 500 feet before my hard deck. That was 500 feet of playtime to see if I could fix it. I tried to pull the slider back up. No luck.

Finally, I reached over (could barely reach) and got both hands on the toggle and yanked as hard as I could, and it came free. I still had a few feet to spare before my harddeck.

had the problem continued past 2500 feet, I'd have cutaway, since at that point, I didn't have a landable canopy.

Should I get slider bumpers installed, or just pull the slider down past the toggles and behind my head?

Is there any other way to prevent this problem?

[payback462 0]

i belive this is the same situation that caused me to have to cutaway my vengeance.

on opening, the slider slamed down over the toggles, unstowed one toggle and locked the other one in place, i tried to clear both toggles, but could only get the bottom part of the locked toggle out.
luckily for you this happened on a lightly loaded canopy flyingy straight, (and not a somewhat heavily loaded elliptical spiraling towards the ground)

definetaly get the slider stops installed, it takes five mintues and it is the best way to prevent this from happening.
as far as pulling the slider down behind your head, its a personal choice, but at this point, its not going to make any differece in performance.

although if you DONT get the bumpers installed id strongly recommend pulling the slider down, as jumping without the stops and the slider up, is belived to be linked to one recent fatality.

[pds 0]

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although if you DONT get the bumpers installed id strongly recommend pulling the slider down, as jumping without the stops and the slider up, is belived to be linked to one recent fatality.

make that two.

namaste, motherfucker.

[hookitt 1]

I would suggest the Slink Slider stops at this point in your career. If you do choose to pull it down, collapse it, then pull it down carefully over the toggles.

It gets interesting very quickly when you accidentally unstow a toggle with the slider part way down.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mjosparky 4]

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definetaly get the slider stops installed, it takes five mintues and it is the best way to prevent this from happening

Installing slider stops with slinks takes way more time than 5 minutes.
Kris, if you get them, I will put them on for you.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Nightingale 0]

Groundzero won't allow anything to be added to the rig until I pay it off (probably Feb 7th), but I will most probably take you up on that! That stuck toggle was SCARY. I don't want it happening again.

[hookitt 1]

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Groundzero won't allow anything to be added to the rig until I pay it off (probably Feb 7th), but I will most probably take you up on that! That stuck toggle was SCARY. I don't want it happening again.

GroundZero would most definately let you add stops to it. If not I'll sell my Xaos.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This brings back bad memories of a good friend of ours out in AZ last year. Get your slider collapsing procedures resolved. We don't need to be losing any more friends due to this sort of issue.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[payback462 0]

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Installing slider stops with slinks takes way more time than 5 minutes

ok 15 if you include the line check afterwords
(the key is using hemostats and turning them inside out to get the tab under the riser) i learned that the hard way after doing 15 some canopies in a row one day

although definetaly not a rigger only job, it requires knowing how to hook up a canopy with slinks and do a line check.

[Nightingale 0]

I asked...

I'll bug them again.

[FrogNog 1]

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I would suggest the Slink Slider stops at this point in your career. If you do choose to pull it down, collapse it, then pull it down carefully over the toggles.

It gets interesting very quickly when you accidentally unstow a toggle with the slider part way down.

I am very careful whenever I pull the collapsed slider down over the toggles. But on some rigs I jump (I don't have my own rig yet) I now choose to leave the collapsed slider above the toggles because I feel more comfortable that way - the slider is very close to my neck / helmet and interferes with seeing my alti when it is down.

So I suggest you might want to experiment once or twice with pulling the slider down and see if you like it. Personally, I expect on my personal rig I will use slider stops.

Edit: I'm not trying to say you shouldn't take into account your current place in your career, I'm just saying that if you try it like I did, you might find that you just don't like it.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[hookitt 1]

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I asked...

I'll bug them again.

I thought you meant GroundZero as in Chris. Seriously though, if you have possesion of the rig, it's non-invasive, and mjo could take care of it in about 10 minutes or so. If no one but you is using it, then I really see no reason they won't let you put stops on it.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Jib 0]

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But on some rigs I jump (I don't have my own rig yet) I now choose to leave the collapsed slider above the toggles because I feel more comfortable that way - the slider is very close to my neck / helmet and interferes with seeing my alti when it is down.

Were you bringing it down in front of you?

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Nightingale 0]

dunno bout Frog, but when I brought it down behind my head on my next jump, I had trouble seeing my alti too.

[GravityGirl 0]

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Groundzero won't allow anything to be added to the rig until I pay it off (probably Feb 7th), but I will most probably take you up on that! That stuck toggle was SCARY. I don't want it happening again.

GroundZero would most definately let you add stops to it. If not I'll sell my Xaos.

She means GroundZero Gear Store in Elsinore.

And I bet if you asked Kama really nice and had it done by a rigger, she would go for it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[hookitt 1]

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She means GroundZero Gear Store in Elsinore

Yeah.. I figured that part out

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[bch7773 0]

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I released the toggles, did my control check, and all seemed fine.

At about 3000 feet, I tried to pull down on the right toggle and it wouldn't move. It was stuck good. The slider had come down over the top of the riser and was pinning the toggle to the riser. I couldn't budge it. Bout all I could do with this canopy at this point was turn left.

had the problem continued past 2500 feet, I'd have cutaway, since at that point, I didn't have a landable canopy.

hey I have a question: It sounds like you already unstowed both brakes, then had the right toggle get stuck... so it was flying straight but you wouldn't have been able to turn left. Am I reading that correctly?

because if i am, couldn't you have just steered with rear risers, and landed it with rears too? I was just wondering since you said you were gonna cut it away.

congrats on fixing it in the air.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[GravityGirl 0]

Not everyone is comfortable with landing rear risers. It is pretty easy to collapse it. And I wouldn't do it with my toggles unstowed. Well, unless I HAD to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Nightingale 0]

toggles were unstowed. I could fly straight and turn left, but the right toggle was stuck.

I've practiced with rear risers, but since this is only my fifth or so jump on a 190 canopy (was jumping a 210 before) and my landings are pretty bad to begin with, I didn't feel comfortable with a rear riser landing.

[rigging65 0]

IMO, if you're not comfortable landing your canopy on rear risers in the event of an emergency (ie- too low to chop) than you are flying the wrong canopy. Period. You don't have the skills and need to be on something bigger...for all of our sakes.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Nightingale 0]

I'm not comfortable with it simply because I've never done it before. On the 210 I'd been jumping, I think I'd have been okay.

my landings on the 190 have been 100 times better than on the larger canopies, and I was advised by my instructors that the 190 was the right canopy for me at this time. I'm going to be getting some canopy coaching very soon. For the time being, I'm wingloading the 190 at .8 and am comfortable with my canopy. I just haven't had a lot of chances to practice with rear risers.

[labrys 0]

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IMO, if you're not comfortable landing your canopy on rear risers in the event of an emergency (ie- too low to chop) than you are flying the wrong canopy

Being at about the same experience level as Nightingale and having had a very similar problem where I had to decide if I could land with rear risers because I had a stuck toggle... I would like more input here. What I think I'm hearing is that no one should ever downsize.

Say I'm flying a 230' canopy and feel really comfortable turning and landing on rear risers. I jump that canopy for X number of jumps, exhibit that I'm skilled enough to downsize... and switch to a 210 or 190.

Keep in mind that we are new skydivers....

So within the first couple of jumps on my new 190' canopy I get a stuck toggle. I'm just learning to fly the damned thing. I can't "upsize" mid flight. I need to decide NOW if I cut it away or risk landing in an unfamiliar, untested way at faster speeds than I"m used to?

It really seems to me that under your rules nobody should ever downsize. Ever

Owned by Remi #?

[livnbored 0]

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definetaly get the slider stops installed, it takes five mintues and it is the best way to prevent this from happening.
as far as pulling the slider down behind your head, its a personal choice, but at this point, its not going to make any differece in performance.

although if you DONT get the bumpers installed id strongly recommend pulling the slider down, as jumping without the stops and the slider up, is belived to be linked to one recent fatality.

I definitely agree. If your slider can easily slide down your risers, your best bet is to slide it down. If you aren't comfortable with that, (I don't do it) get the stops put on your slinks. Take into consideration, also, the number of people with broken knuckles because their sliders come screamin' down on openings while they're reachin' up for their risers...WHACK. More than one good reason to have stops... or to not grab your risers...

[nbblood 0]

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Being at about the same experience level as Nightingale and having had a very similar problem where I had to decide if I could land with rear risers because I had a stuck toggle... I would like more input here. What I think I'm hearing is that no one should ever downsize.

I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I don't think they're saying never downsize, what they're saying is learn to get the performance out of the canopy you're on before you downsize. Simply being able to land the canopy consistently is not enough. There's tons of info on downsizing around the forums, including a downsizing checklist. Now is it true that after downsizing you may not have that capability....perhaps, in that case I would consider going back. But if you learn to fly your current canopy to its limits, you probably won't run into the problem when downsizing. Of course that said, I've heard some of the very highly wingloaded smaller canopies are probably not landable on rears. Probably find debates on that too.

My hunch is that Nightengale is fully capable of landing rear risers on her current canopy. I would suggest trying "flaring" the canopy up high with the rears and see how it reacts. Definitely talk to your instructors, get their opinions. If they think, try a rear riser landing. I don't have very many jumps either, but I know I can land my canopy on rears, no doubt.....because I've done it a couple times. It's not that hard on light wingloadings, especially if you PLF....and definitely be ready to do that. These could be potentially lifesaving skills.

Just my .02 for what its worth.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[rigging65 0]

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I would like more input here. What I think I'm hearing is that no one should ever downsize.

That's not it at all. But ask yourself this: Why are you downsizing?

If your answer is "to get more performance"; have you actually gotten all you're going to get out of the canopy you're on? With bigger student canopies this might not take many jumps simply because there just isn't that much performance to be had...BUT, you should have practiced with rear risers (as well as other controls) up high, and be comfortable with making them work for you before you "ask for more canopy".

Note- "Wanting more performance" doesn't have to mean you want to swoop or do radical carving 540s. It could simply mean you want a bit more speed to create more lift on landing. But with this slight increase in speed comes an increase in rate of turn, length of dive, etc... You can't get only one aspect of "more" performance, you get them all...and you have to be ready for them all.

Once you're jumping canopies as a licensed sport jumper, you really should be flying the canopy hard and wanting more out of it IN ALL AREAS before you move on...

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Keep in mind that we are new skydivers....

Does the ground become softer because you're a new jumper? Being "new" doesn't make a damn bit of difference. You'll be just as injured or dead as anyone else will be if you mess up on a canopy that you can't control.

Take your time, you'll have a much longer career to enjoy that way.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."